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Thread: A new Word of Wisdom

  1. #1

    Default A new Word of Wisdom

    The other night, my newly-baptized 8 yr old comes up behind me and asks what I'm drinking.
    "Dr. Pepper"
    "Why are you drinking that?
    "Uh...because I like it?"
    "It has caffeine in it."
    "Son...go to bed."

    This one bugs me a little because we've never talked about caffeine in relation to the WOW. My caffeine intake is essentially limited to nightshifts and roadtrips where I'm getting tired, as I don't drink much soda at all. But my wife had bought a 12-pack for some friends who had come over to visit and they had left it untouched, so I treated myself to the wonderful goodness that is Dr. Pepper. So my first question is, where did he get this caffeine connection? And how does he know Dr. Pepper has caffeine in it? I'm suspicious that my MIL was involved, the same one who is 100 lbs overweight and has never walked the two blocks between her home and her work, yet won't touch or allow a drop of caffeine into her house.

    But I digress...The deeper point that this has gotten me thinking about is how to teach the WOW to my kids. I feel like I grew up with an unhealthy obsession on rules, and as I'm raising my kids, I've tried to step back and teach them the principles behind the rules, and let them make their own. In relation to the WOW, I think the idea is clear--value and take care of the gift of your body that God has given you. Yet, the practical meaning of this seems to have warped into something entirely different--a sort of litmus test for the "active" Mormon.

    So, I present to you my NIV of the WOW, or how I would set it up if (God forbid) I were in charge:
    1) Make it a WOW, not by constraint.
    2) Keep the ban on alcohol, or at least limit it to persons over say, 25. I know, there is a healthy way to drink alcohol. But there are so many unhealthy ways to do it and the havoc it can wreak on society is tremendous. It's as least as dangerous as MJ (and really, more so--I've NEVER seen anyone die from an overdose of MJ). Additionally, part of "valuing your body" is, in my mind, valuing the clarity of soberness, not just in relation to alcohol, but in relation to all substances whose chief purpose is to alter it. Hence the ban on people under 25--I think this is the age where most stop drinking for a buzz or to get drunk and transition over to a healthy sort of drinking.
    3) Keep the ban on cigarettes/cigars/etc. A vile disgusting habit with no redeeming value.
    4) Ban illicit drugs, including MJ (sorry Robin). See sobriety point above.
    5) Change no coffee, tea, etc to "Eliminate excessive use of caffeine or stimulants". No coffee is just nutty and everyone around us thinks so. They're not admiring it, they're thinking "what the heck does coffee have to do with morality?"
    6) Put sugar on the same level as caffeine--eliminate excessive use.
    7) Maintain a healthy weight. I'm tempted to suggest in Sunday school some day that we require a BMI under 30 to attend the temple. Ridiculous? Yeah, so is the coffee ban.
    8) Daily activity or exercise.
    9) Eat plenty of fruits of vegetables.

    Any other suggestions?

  2. #2
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    I think I agree with most of this. But sometimes I'm glad I'm not addicted to coffee. I frequently have a Diet Coke or Diet Mountain Dew in the AM, which completely violates the spirit of the Word of Wisdom, but it's not something I need no matter what.

    When I was in Las Vegas for a conference last week, I saw people waiting in long lines (it looked like for at least 30 minutes) to get coffee at a coffee shop in Caesar's Palace. A bunch of docs told me they missed one of the really great talks at the meeting because they were waiting in line to get their coffee. I found it interesting that of all the potential "vices" to be found in Las Vegas, coffee seemed to reveal itself as possibly the most addictive. I don't think anybody would have missed that great talk at the conference to play poker or stand in line for alcohol.

    As far as health purposes, the WoW would ideally simply limit alcohol to no more than 2 drinks per day rather than banning it outright. That amount of alcohol has been correlated with better health outcomes than complete abstinence (albeit not in a randomized, blinded study). And that amount of alcohol doesn't cloud judgment enough that people could blame any subsequent sins on the drinking.

    I agree completely about the weight and exercise points. "Addiction to food" was mentioned in the last General Conference and hopefully we will continue to hear more emphasis on this increasingly important part of healthy living.

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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Sometimes I wish the Church would be very clear on the caffeine thing. There are mixed messages being sent, esp with regards to Coke products.

    For me, I have no problem with the current incarnation of the WoW. I loved Dr. Pep and Dew, but I am fine not drinking them. I don't drink much soda anyway. And the caffeine free varieties taste pretty much the same, esp if you are not used to chugging 72 oz of it every day.

    I don't care about alcohol. Wine would be interesting, but I am fine not drinking it.

    I certainly have zero desire to do drugs. In fact, I find the attempts by some here to portray weed as fun and cool to be quite charming.....in a pathetic sort of way. Just my opinion.

    For me, the Wow is one of the least interesting aspects of doctrine/practice in our Church simply because it pertains to a bunch of stuff that I don't care about anyway.

    I am guessing that overall, the traditional ortho definition of the WoW will probably set me up with the best chances at good health in the long run. I know of no disadvantages to my health that result from abstaining from weed, cigarettes, beer, or whatever. So that works for me. It seems that the studies that allegedly show that wine is actually beneficial are still yet to be fleshed out...there is always some caveat. So for now, I am cool with teaching the benefits of being a teetotaler.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    As far as health purposes, the WoW would ideally simply limit alcohol to no more than 2 drinks per day rather than banning it outright. That amount of alcohol has been correlated with better health outcomes than complete abstinence (albeit not in a randomized, blinded study). And that amount of alcohol doesn't cloud judgment enough that people could blame any subsequent sins on the drinking.
    Cardiac, forgive me on this, but while you are much, much, smarter than I am, it seems incredibly naive to think people are going to stop at just two drinks per day. Sure some people might stop at two, but it seems to me that once you say to yourself that it's okay to have a drink or two per day, it would be very easy to go beyond that until you ultimately have a serious problem.

    I think the same goes for something like gambling - a little here and a little there isn't a problem and can even be therapeutic for some people. I have two people close to me who gamble - my grandma and my brother. My grandma has been able to keep it under control and it is indeed therapeutic for her. My brother thought he could keep it under control, but he now has a problem.

    Why play with fire? Drinking seems like a serious enough issue that it should simply be avoided all together. The supposed health benefits of a couple drinks aren't worth the risks, IMO.

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    Known Heterosexual RC Vikings's Avatar
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    No hard alcohol and moderation on beer and wine.

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    Not Banned Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    Sometimes I wish the Church would be very clear on the caffeine thing. There are mixed messages being sent, esp with regards to Coke products.

    For me, I have no problem with the current incarnation of the WoW. I loved Dr. Pep and Dew, but I am fine not drinking them. I don't drink much soda anyway. And the caffeine free varieties taste pretty much the same, esp if you are not used to chugging 72 oz of it every day.

    I don't care about alcohol. Wine would be interesting, but I am fine not drinking it.

    I certainly have zero desire to do drugs. In fact, I find the attempts by some here to portray weed as fun and cool to be quite charming.....in a pathetic sort of way. Just my opinion.

    For me, the Wow is one of the least interesting aspects of doctrine/practice in our Church simply because it pertains to a bunch of stuff that I don't care about anyway.

    I am guessing that overall, the traditional ortho definition of the WoW will probably set me up with the best chances at good health in the long run. I know of no disadvantages to my health that result from abstaining from weed, cigarettes, beer, or whatever. So that works for me. It seems that the studies that allegedly show that wine is actually beneficial are still yet to be fleshed out...there is always some caveat. So for now, I am cool with teaching the benefits of being a teetotaler.
    Perhaps your ambivalence toward those substances is a result of your adherence to the Word of Wisdom.
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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    Cardiac, forgive me on this, but while you are much, much, smarter than I am, it seems incredibly naive to think people are going to stop at just two drinks per day. Sure some people might stop at two, but it seems to me that once you say to yourself that it's okay to have a drink or two per day, it would be very easy to go beyond that until you ultimately have a serious problem.

    I think the same goes for something like gambling - a little here and a little there isn't a problem and can even be therapeutic for some people. I have two people close to me who gamble - my grandma and my brother. My grandma has been able to keep it under control and it is indeed therapeutic for her. My brother thought he could keep it under control, but he now has a problem.

    Why play with fire? Drinking seems like a serious enough issue that it should simply be avoided all together. The supposed health benefits of a couple drinks aren't worth the risks, IMO.
    There is a word for someone that drinks alcohol every single day, even in "moderation"......
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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Perhaps your ambivalence toward those substances is a result of your adherence to the Word of Wisdom.
    Could be, but not sure. Even as a teen, pre-Church, I had zero desire to smoke or do drugs. That stuff never interested me. Drinking seemed stupid, although now that I am older, wine holds an allure.

    But for the most part, I am not too put out by the WoW.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    So my first question is, where did he get this caffeine connection?
    I find it ironic that the straight edgers who preach that caffeine is against the WOW (due to its addictive element) usually appear as though they average three or four helpings of dessert per day. And when I say usually I mean a good 90% of them.

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    Nothing like CUF turning into Cougarboard on a Sunday.

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    My family always emphasized that the word of wisdom was as important for its list of "do"s than its "don't"s. I remember telling the bishop, when I was being interviewed for baptism and he asked me if I kept the word of wisdom, "I try." He was a little concerned at first.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

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    ER, I like your points as an infinitely better alternative to the typical way that most active LDS approach the WOW. I think your brood will be much better off.

    As open as we are with Little Robin about mind altering substances, we also let him know that we believe that it is important for a body to develop and grow up without them. We expect Little Robin to experiment with all kinds of mind altering drugs. I've even told him that I hope he will trust me to shepherd him through some of the early stages of experimentation. But this we have made very clear -- a body and mind should develop without drugs and alcohol. We are encouraging the little one to abstain until his body has done most of its growing. We don't expect him to abstain into his early twenties (lots of people are still growing then), but we are hoping that by the time he wants to experiment, he will have done most of his growing, and will come to us to learn about safety and moderation. Who knows? He may also rebel and be a total teetotaler.

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    Not Banned Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    Cardiac, forgive me on this, but while you are much, much, smarter than I am, it seems incredibly naive to think people are going to stop at just two drinks per day. Sure some people might stop at two, but it seems to me that once you say to yourself that it's okay to have a drink or two per day, it would be very easy to go beyond that until you ultimately have a serious problem.

    I think the same goes for something like gambling - a little here and a little there isn't a problem and can even be therapeutic for some people. I have two people close to me who gamble - my grandma and my brother. My grandma has been able to keep it under control and it is indeed therapeutic for her. My brother thought he could keep it under control, but he now has a problem.

    Why play with fire? Drinking seems like a serious enough issue that it should simply be avoided all together. The supposed health benefits of a couple drinks aren't worth the risks, IMO.
    That's the thing, though: those who want to grow closer to the Lord will stop at their personal limit. Those who want to maintain self-control will do so at their own will. If they're not able to maintain self-control, they're not ready to progress in the sight of God yet.

    We would be better off if we had NO Law of Moses-style rules in the church. People should be allowed to decide for themselves that they are going to grow closer to God. Those who are willing to live a higher law (governing themselves rather than being governed by arbitrary rules) will receive higher blessings.
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    Senior Member Clark Addison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFinderson View Post
    As open as we are with Little Robin about mind altering substances, we also let him know that we believe that it is important for a body to develop and grow up without them. We expect Little Robin to experiment with all kinds of mind altering drugs.
    I don't mean to threadjack, but are you serious about "all kinds"? While it really doesn't hold much of an allure for me, I don't really have much of a problem with marijuana. Anything beyond that, though, and you get into the realm of stuff that can really mess people up pretty easily. I think that's a pretty dangerous message to send to a kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFinderson View Post
    I've even told him that I hope he will trust me to shepherd him through some of the early stages of experimentation.
    Forgive me for sounding judgmental here, but I think that is a spectacularly bad idea. If you are lucky, he will rebel against you, abstain from all, and think his parents are a couple of major league freaks. And that's the upside. While there may be a few of them around, I've never known anyone who was comfortable doing drugs with their parents. The message I think he will hear from this is, I would suspect, "anything goes".

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    Senior Member byu71's Avatar
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    One time in a Priesthood meeting while a rather large fellow was going off on caffeine and near beer drinkers, I couldn't resist.

    I said each of us could know if we were obeying the WOW by seeing if we could walk and not be weary or run and not faint. It goes something like that.

    I then suggested the Bishop could hold an annual 5 mile run to see who is following the commandment. I didn't get the laughs I expected and one serious dirty look. That's why I keep my mouth shut most of the time in Priesthood Meeting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    .
    7) Maintain a healthy weight. I'm tempted to suggest in Sunday school some day that we require a BMI under 30 to attend the temple. Ridiculous? Yeah, so is the coffee ban.
    8) Daily activity or exercise.
    9) Eat plenty of fruits of vegetables.

    Any other suggestions?
    I'm headed to RS dessert night. I think I'll share your ideas 7-9 with the sistas.

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    I would prefer a much simpler approach. Simply return to the spirit in which the commandment was given: a friendly suggestion. Encourage people to live healthy lives and stop making it a litmus test for temple recommends or baptism.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    This is indeed a progressive board.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by byu71 View Post
    One time in a Priesthood meeting while a rather large fellow was going off on caffeine and near beer drinkers, I couldn't resist.

    I said each of us could know if we were obeying the WOW by seeing if we could walk and not be weary or run and not faint. It goes something like that.

    I then suggested the Bishop could hold an annual 5 mile run to see who is following the commandment. I didn't get the laughs I expected and one serious dirty look. That's why I keep my mouth shut most of the time in Priesthood Meeting.
    This is why I keep my trap shut during WoW lessons.
    "It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Addison View Post
    Forgive me for sounding judgmental here, but I think that is a spectacularly bad idea. If you are lucky, he will rebel against you, abstain from all, and think his parents are a couple of major league freaks. And that's the upside. While there may be a few of them around, I've never known anyone who was comfortable doing drugs with their parents. The message I think he will hear from this is, I would suspect, "anything goes".
    I know more than a few people who smoke pot with their older kids. It's not as uncommon as you would think. Outside of the Mormon culture, pot is pretty much thought of as a harmless diversion. If you smoke pot and you your kids are going to smoke it anyway, why not smoke it with them?

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    OK, I'll bite: What about people with a genetic predisposition to alcoholism? Wouldn't a standard allowing two drinks a day put them in jeopardy?

    And, just to be argumentative, 60 years ago, might not some of us have suggested no more than half a pack of cigarettes a day? What will we say about alcohol in 60 years?

    Just trying to stay in touch with my inner mullah . . . .
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I would prefer a much simpler approach. Simply return to the spirit in which the commandment was given: a friendly suggestion. Encourage people to live healthy lives and stop making it a litmus test for temple recommends or baptism.
    This makes so mush more sense then the present system.

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    Senior Member Clark Addison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    I know more than a few people who smoke pot with their older kids. It's not as uncommon as you would think. Outside of the Mormon culture, pot is pretty much thought of as a harmless diversion. If you smoke pot and you your kids are going to smoke it anyway, why not smoke it with them?
    As I said, I don't have much of a problem with pot (for other people at least, I'd have a serious problem with my kids). But Robin said he expects his son to experiment with "all kinds of mind altering drugs", and that he would like to shepherd him through the early stages of it. This sounds both unrealistic and dangerous to me.

    Your point is taken that I am certainly biased by the people I spend most of my time with, and this group is heavily (but by no means all) Mormon. Also, I apologize to Robin if I am misreading his post.

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    Senior Member Clark Addison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I would prefer a much simpler approach. Simply return to the spirit in which the commandment was given: a friendly suggestion. Encourage people to live healthy lives and stop making it a litmus test for temple recommends or baptism.
    How would we then measure the comparative unworthiness of others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFinderson View Post
    ER, I like your points as an infinitely better alternative to the typical way that most active LDS approach the WOW. I think your brood will be much better off.

    As open as we are with Little Robin about mind altering substances, we also let him know that we believe that it is important for a body to develop and grow up without them. We expect Little Robin to experiment with all kinds of mind altering drugs. I've even told him that I hope he will trust me to shepherd him through some of the early stages of experimentation. But this we have made very clear -- a body and mind should develop without drugs and alcohol. We are encouraging the little one to abstain until his body has done most of its growing. We don't expect him to abstain into his early twenties (lots of people are still growing then), but we are hoping that by the time he wants to experiment, he will have done most of his growing, and will come to us to learn about safety and moderation. Who knows? He may also rebel and be a total teetotaler.
    Your wild eyed idealism is one of the most endearing things about you. But I think you are impossibly naive on this. Little Robin is going to be offered drugs before he would be old enough to be a Deacon if you were active. What you have done is give him license to say yes. The mischief here is in assuming that a young brain can appreciate the subtleties yours can.

    The vast majority of the "cool kids" from high school whose parents bought them booze and let them experiment with drugs ("better that they do it at home than somewhere else") almost to a one ended up with serious substance abuse problems. Don't do this to your boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Addison View Post
    I don't mean to threadjack, but are you serious about "all kinds"? While it really doesn't hold much of an allure for me, I don't really have much of a problem with marijuana. Anything beyond that, though, and you get into the realm of stuff that can really mess people up pretty easily. I think that's a pretty dangerous message to send to a kid.



    Forgive me for sounding judgmental here, but I think that is a spectacularly bad idea. If you are lucky, he will rebel against you, abstain from all, and think his parents are a couple of major league freaks. And that's the upside. While there may be a few of them around, I've never known anyone who was comfortable doing drugs with their parents. The message I think he will hear from this is, I would suspect, "anything goes".
    The hope, Clark Addison, is twofold:

    1. I hope to teach Little Robin to study out what he chooses to ingest. This goes for all foods and medicines, both licit and otherwise. The hope is that rather than relying on the FDA, law, dogma, parents, etc. that he will instead study the effects of something and whether or not that is something he wants to experience. I hope that he not only studies the effects of the food/medicine on the body, but that he also studies how the food/medicine got to him. In the same way that I hope that Little Robin avoids foods that were brought to his plate using abusive labor practices, I would hope that Little R. avoids drugs with a blood trail behind them. The goal isn't 'anything goes.' The goal is 'study it out before you make a choice.'

    2. I hope that when Little Robin decides he wants to try something, that he comes to me to talk about it first. Then we can talk about what he did to figure out whether or not it was something he wanted to try. If he wants to try it, I hope to be able to be there, to ensure that he is safe. What parent wouldn't want this? If the child is going to drink, wouldn't it be preferable to be there to help him learn about the body's limits?

    My approach is all about seeking 'wisdom' and recognizing that your body is yours to use or abuse, but that it is the only body you will ever have, so make choices carefully.

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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    Cardiac, forgive me on this, but while you are much, much, smarter than I am, it seems incredibly naive to think people are going to stop at just two drinks per day. Sure some people might stop at two, but it seems to me that once you say to yourself that it's okay to have a drink or two per day, it would be very easy to go beyond that until you ultimately have a serious problem.

    I think the same goes for something like gambling - a little here and a little there isn't a problem and can even be therapeutic for some people. I have two people close to me who gamble - my grandma and my brother. My grandma has been able to keep it under control and it is indeed therapeutic for her. My brother thought he could keep it under control, but he now has a problem.

    Why play with fire? Drinking seems like a serious enough issue that it should simply be avoided all together. The supposed health benefits of a couple drinks aren't worth the risks, IMO.
    "I'm an idiot and have no self-control so I want a bunch of really old men to tell me what I should never sample."--somokeymountain

    This has got to be the most uninformed thing I've ever read, even more than when some guy posted he never heard Mormons preach that blacks were fence sitters in the pre-existnce.

    Guess what. It's not hard to have two drinks and stop. Billions of people do it every day. A miniscule percentabe of people who drink are alchololics. For most poeple who drink, alchohol isn't really as enjoyable or important as thousands of things in life we spend time and money on. It's not hard to have two drinks and then not drink a drop for five days. I had two glasses of wine today and so did my wife, then I sealed up the bottle and put it in our subzero special wine refrigerator. Only freaks and weirdos and reformed acoholics don't drink a drop for fear they won't be able to stop drinking. Drinking socially is not a big deal. It's not playing Russian roulette. Most productive and successful people drink socially. Sheesh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    I know more than a few people who smoke pot with their older kids. It's not as uncommon as you would think. Outside of the Mormon culture, pot is pretty much thought of as a harmless diversion. If you smoke pot and you your kids are going to smoke it anyway, why not smoke it with them?
    My family is not Mormon. My mom always taught us of the dangers of smoking "reefer." You make it sound that a vast majority of folks have no problem with pot. Is this really the case?

    It is hard to get a read from ex-Mos as to what is normal. Guys like SeattleUte, robinfinderson, woot, etc..because much of their experimentation came as a form of rebellion, not because it was the normal thing to do. There are lots of people that think smoking is gauche, that doing drugs is ridiculous. It isn't a Mormon phenomenon.

    Robinfinderon's earlier post today about sitting down with his kid and encouraging him to smoke pot together (if at all) and an expectation that his kid is going to do all kinds of drugs is downright bananas. That isn't what is going on inside "most" homes, I would imagine. What parents want their kids to experiment with drugs? I can promise you that SeattleUte is not expecting his kids to do all kinds of drugs, and he is not going to offer to light the pipe with them if they do decide to hotbox.
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  29. #29
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    Cardiac, forgive me on this, but while you are much, much, smarter than I am, it seems incredibly naive to think people are going to stop at just two drinks per day. Sure some people might stop at two, but it seems to me that once you say to yourself that it's okay to have a drink or two per day, it would be very easy to go beyond that until you ultimately have a serious problem.

    I think the same goes for something like gambling - a little here and a little there isn't a problem and can even be therapeutic for some people. I have two people close to me who gamble - my grandma and my brother. My grandma has been able to keep it under control and it is indeed therapeutic for her. My brother thought he could keep it under control, but he now has a problem.

    Why play with fire? Drinking seems like a serious enough issue that it should simply be avoided all together. The supposed health benefits of a couple drinks aren't worth the risks, IMO.
    Yeah, good points. The overall health of the world would be better without alcoholic beverages, that's for sure. Alcoholism is a major problem. And if somebody is genetically predisposed to be an alcoholic but never ends up touching the stuff due to religion, then that person is very fortunate. But it's also true that the vast majority of people who drink alcohol don't become alcoholics and don't ever have the desire to drink excessively.

    As far as the Church goes, I like Lebowski's suggestion of returning the WoW to its original intent of "good advice" rather than having it be a basic worthiness standard.
    Last edited by CardiacCoug; 05-24-2009 at 08:54 PM.

  30. #30
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    My family is not Mormon. My mom always taught us of the dangers of smoking "reefer." You make it sound that a vast majority of folks have no problem with pot. Is this really the case?

    It is hard to get a read from ex-Mos as to what is normal. Guys like SeattleUte, robinfinderson, woot, etc..because much of their experimentation came as a form of rebellion, not because it was the normal thing to do. There are lots of people that think smoking is gauche, that doing drugs is ridiculous. It isn't a Mormon phenomenon.

    Robinfinderon's earlier post today about sitting down with his kid and encouraging him to smoke pot together (if at all) and an expectation that his kid is going to do all kinds of drugs is downright bananas. That isn't what is going on inside "most" homes, I would imagine. What parents want their kids to experiment with drugs? I can promise you that SeattleUte is not expecting his kids to do all kinds of drugs, and he is not going to offer to light the pipe with them if they do decide to hotbox.
    I catch any of my kids smoking reefer I kick their asses.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

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