Dale Murphy for the HOF

[SoCalCoug]

Do you know how many hitters whose best years were during the decade of the 1980's are in the Hall of Fame? 13: Reggie Jackson, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Kirby Puckett, Dave Winfield, Ozzie Smith, Gary Carter, Eddie Murray, Ryne Sandberg, Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken, Jim Rice, and Andre Dawson.

Of those, 7 played primarily in the AL during that time. That leaves 3B Mike Schmidt, SS Ozzie Smith, C Gary Carter, 2B Ryne Sandberg, and OF Tony Gwynn and Andre Dawson.

Murph's stats are inarguably better than Smith and Carter, who got in because of the positions they played. As a slugger, his numbers are better than Sandberg, who hit .285 for his career, compared to Murph's .265. But Sandberg had only 282 HR's and 1,061 RBI, compared to Murph's 398 and 1,266. Gwynn got in by virtue of his high average (he was undoubtedly the best pure hitter of his era). Schmidt was definitely the class of the 80's. But you can't tell me that Andre Dawson is HOF-worthy, and Murph is not. Dawson's numbers are a little better (and he played a little longer). But compare Dawson's 8 All Star appearances to Murph's 7, Dawson had 7 Gold Gloves to Murph's 5 (all in center field). They each had 4 silver sluggers. And Murph has 2 MVP's, to Dawson's 1 (Dawson finished 2nd to Murph in 1983).

So, for the 80's, 4 AL outfielders are in the Hall; 2 NL outfielders are in the Hall. There should be 3.

[SoCalCoug]

It isn't about over inflated numbers from the steroids era, it is about him not being good enough. If you look at his adjusted stats, they don't measure up.

No one doubts that for a 5 year period he was a top 5 player at worst and possible the best player in MLB, but that isn't enough especially when the rest of his career is so average.

For a 5 year period he was a top 2 player. The rest of his career is average when compared to the steroid era. He was inarguably one of the top 3 outfielders of the 1980's in the National League.

[wuapinmon]

Dale Murphy is a good human being, but those aren't Hall of Fame contributions.

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are complete assholes, but they should be voted into the Hall of Fame this year. Neither of them will get in because of steroids, but they both are deserving.

I disagree about Bonds and Clemens. Bonds would've made the Hall without steroids, but vanity made him too driven to care about rules. He doesn't deserve it for cheating. Clemens's career was in a downward spiral before he went to Toronto, about the same time that Brady Anderson was jacking homers like a damned fool. I don't think that your arm and career just suddenly get better from throwing MORE in your mid 30's.

[wuapinmon]

SoCalCoug, here are some thoughts of mine from a few years ago about Murph and Steroids.



Baseball Porn: Major League Baseball from 1988-2007,
Steroid Use and the Mitchell Report

So, think back with me. It’s 1996 and a guy named Brady Anderson hits 50 homers for the Orioles. I was astounded. Even though George Foster had hit 50 homeruns when I was an toddler, no one had done it in my childhood or adolescence, save the naturally-thick Cecil Fielder. One look at his son Prince, and you’ll notice that the family has no need for injections of drugs to make them strong. Natural selection has provided the muscle to them through their ancestors’ DNA and their own work to develop the latent physique encoded in their bodies.

But then this Brady Anderson fellow hits 50 homeruns after hitting 16 the year before. And so does Albert Belle, and Greg Vaughn, and then the skinny Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, and Barry Bonds of their Topps rookie cards gave way to the ham hock behemoths of the mid-1990’s. We all knew something was up:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...5AC0A960958260

Anderson said he took creatine and had a lean physique. McGwire claimed he got his bulk from Andro. But was else was coursing through the veins of MLB in those days?

With the expansion to the five-man rotation and added teams in Florida, Tampa, Colorado, and Arizona, 46 guys who would’ve never been pitching suddenly were. There has never been an over abundance of excellent pitching in the free-agent era (save the 1990’s Braves), and it should be assumed that the dilution of the pitching talent pool would lead to an increase in offensive production. However, the numbers don’t really add up. Even with the weakened pitching efficacy, the homerun numbers have skyrocketed too quickly. Only Dale Murphy and Cal Ripken hit 20 or more homers per year every year from 1982-1990. Since 1990, I couldn’t even begin to compile a list of guys with TEN year 20-or-more streaks.

Hobbled by a string of injuries, Roger Clemens suddenly found new life and dominance as his body began to coordinate again with his immense talent. He won Cy Young after Cy Young. He claimed it was all the result of distance throwing and strength training and throwing on his off days. Amazing! He could recuperate faster from pitching by pushing himself even harder! It is perfectly rational to assume that a man in his mid-30’s can suddenly add 40 lbs of muscle through an intensive conditioning program. Things that sound too good to be true usually are.

I remember going to Braves games in the 1980’s. I was always thrilled when Dale Murphy drilled one into the seats. He struck out a lot, but he was a clutch player, the anti-Jeff Blauser (I like you as a person, Mr. Blauser). It was amazing to watch him. The best ball players I ever saw hit in the 1980’s were Will Clark, Bob Horner, Keith Hernandez, John Kruk, Tommy Gregg, and this tall lanky kid named Daryl Strawberry. It seemed like Strawberry didn’t really need to try. He was a natural batter. Though he ruined his career with a different class of drugs, had he stayed clean he might’ve made the Hall of Fame.

I remember one game in 1988, this scrawny little kid who played for the Pirates hit a homerun to the right power alley at Fulton County Stadium. It seemed like it was still rising when it hit the bleachers, like a Ruben Sierra homerun. His name was Barry Bonds, and he had the look of a great one. Another guy that my dad and I loved the moment we saw him was this short little catcher for the Houston Astros named Craig Biggio. I liked him so much that I bought hundreds of his Upper Deck rookie cards for pennies a piece. Biggio played his career, obviously, without using Performance Enhanching Substances (PES). He amassed 3,000 hits the old-fashioned way, by hustling on every play, by keeping himself fit and healthy, and by using his God-given talent to the utmost. He is a true Hall of Famer. He wasn’t the best at his position; he occasionally led the league, but his HOF-worthy feat was to be above-average for a very long time. You could count on Biggio in the clutch; fans loved him; he was a nice guy; he was respected by his teammates; he was not using.

But, part of me remembers the thrill of all that power, that awe-inspiring sheer power. Hitting a baseball is the hardest feat in the sports world; nothing is harder. If you fail two out of three times, you’ll be a multi-millionaire. And the 1998 season was amazing! Sosa hit 20 homeruns in June! Fantasy baseball was never better! Records fell. New heroes were made. The game seemed infused with new vigor, sparking talk of a new Golden Age, making us forget the vile greed of the '94 strike.

And then I think about how much of a lie it was. The guys weren’t doing it and earning our respect and admiration because of what they could do with what they were given; they did it because some chemist figured out a way to cook the books. Baseball on steroids is Baseball Porn.....a total lie, an overabundance and accumulation of signs.

So, I believe the Mitchell Report. The highly-overrated Andy Pettite admitted to using HGH for “two days” to recover from an injury, because he was outed. I believe that Clemens used something to fix his body, and then amp it up to superhuman proportions; he’s no David Dunn (think Unbreakable).

I suspect McGwire, Vaughn, Sheffield, Anderson, Sosa, Juan Gonzalez, Belle, Luis Gonzalez, David Ortiz, Thome, Bagwell, Hidalgo, Castilla, Glaus, Walker, Shawn Freaking Green, Sexson, Matt Stairs, Nevin, Sheffield, Jay Buhner, the ’96 Orioles, the ’96 A’s, and the Texas Rangers since 1993.

I believe Chipper, Andruw, Pujols, Junior, Howard, Vladimir Guerrero, Helton, Galarraga, McGriff, Manny Ramirez, Piazza, and Carlos Delgado all did it without steroids’ help.

We all know that Canseco, Palmeiro, Giambi, and Bonds are tainted. I would recommend blotting out their records. Without steroids, Canseco was marginal; Palmeiro would’ve never gotten to his Aaron, Ruth, Musial level stats; Giambi would have his brother’s career; and Bonds, well Bonds is just vain and plain stupid. He would’ve made the Hall no matter what. He was a game-breaker. He didn’t need the steroids, but his quest to break Aaron’s record took over, and he let it. Take these four people, along with Sosa and McGwire, and make examples of them. I’m not sure, but I’d think that all baseball records should go back to their 1987 levels, and we should allow new records to be made. Forget asterisks, just don’t even mention any record (including Fernando Tatis’s astounding two grand-slams in one inning that will never happen again) that happened between 1988-2007. It would make baseball fun again, and allow for lots more excitement like 1998 all over again.

Roger Clemens might be innocent. If so, he’s now been libeled. But, just like in school when someone else did something, the entire class was made to suffer. Clemens is guilty by association. It’s un-American to convict him without due process, I know, but I can’t change my belief that he’s guilty-as-hell without some evidence to the contrary. I’d make a terrible juror.

All of this steroid-infused Baseball Porn leads me back to the greatest player the Braves had in the 1980’s, Dale Murphy. I am completely biased because I consider Dale Murphy to be my all-time hero. His arm was one of the best in either league. Were it not for Mike Schmidt he could have been THE star of the National League at the time. As I said before, only he and Cal Ripken hit 20 or more homers every year from 1982-1990. He hit 40 homers once and 30 several times. He did make the 30-30 club back when it had few members (1983). He wound up with 398 homers. I'm not sure, but I think he is the all-time leader in home runs lost to rain-outs. That might be wrong, but I think I remember him passing Bobby Bonds for first place. He won back to back MVP's. He played in 740 consecutive games, the 12th longest streak ever. He was an All-Star in 1980, 82-87 and the top vote getter in 1985; he started five times. Murph hit .302 in 1983 when that was good enough for 6th place in the league. We cannot judge him by today's offense benchmarks. Imagine if someone hit .302 now and was 6th in the league! He led the National League in HR 1984-85, in RBI 82-83, runs in 1985, and OPS in 1983. He won five straight gold gloves from 1982-86 and four straight silver slugger awards from 1982-86. His number (#3) has been retired by the Atlanta Braves.

But he shouldn't be measured solely for his on-field accomplishments. Let's not forget the class and honor that he brought to the game. He was a tireless supporter of the Huntington Disease Foundation, the 65 Roses Club, MDA, Make-A-Wish, The March of Dimes and many many others. He won the Lou Gehrig Award in 1985 and the Roberto Clemente Award in 1988. He was never ejected from a baseball game (I think). He thanked reporters for interviewing him. In Philadelphia once, a stadium security guard didn't recognize him and wouldn't let him into the stadium. He just laughed it off. I can only imagine what Barry Bonds might have done in that situation.

Murphy didn't have an "All suites" clause in his contract, nor did he have his team guarantee him charter jet flights home to his ranch during the season like Kevin Brown. I mean, he even had kind words to say about people like John Kruk, Lenny Dykstra, and even Ozzie Virgil.I think we should point out that when Murphy finished 4th in homers in 1986 that he only had 29 homers. In 1987 he hit 44, but Andre Dawson had 49, so Murphy's awesome power that year was overshadowed in the NL, and by McGwire’s 49 and Jorge Bell’s 47. Homers were much harder to come by in that day and age. No one hit 50 from 1977 (George Foster) until 1990 (Cecil Fielder). If Murphy had connected twice more in his career, I think that he might've gotten into the Hall.

Murphy was universally respected by all players (to be redundant). Imagine this scene: It's 1991, Braves vs. Phillies. Otis Nixon gets beaned by the Phillies pitcher next time up after hitting a homer. The bottom half of the inning, Tom Glavine has to respond and hit the first Phillies batter. Only it's Dale Murphy. He can't do it; no way. So he does the meanest thing he can bring himself to do; he throws Murph four high and inside fastballs to brush him back and put him on. Murphy got the base, and Glavine got the boot by the ump. Glavine said the ump later told him, "I only let you throw four, because that was Murphy and because I knew you wouldn't." It was not merely because they had been teammates, but because Murphy was so respected that he was off limits (by the umpires) for stunts like that. Glavine is a class act too, he's in the Hall for sure, and Murphy will make it somehow, someday, someway.

If anyone deserves to get in, without the numbers we're used to seeing, he does, for being the nicest, most polite gentleman to ever grace the field.

Murph's stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/murphda05.shtml

Weird site: www.fmtc.com/~trinity/

An article by a higher news source than me: http://espn.go.com/talent/danpatrick...4/1409552.html






What a physically fit athlete should look like!

[MartyFunkhouser]

For a 5 year period he was a top 2 player. The rest of his career is average when compared to the steroid era. He was inarguably one of the top 3 outfielders of the 1980's in the National League.

It is average when compared to other players who played in his era. OPS+ is adjusted for park and league effects and shows for a lot of his career he was nothing more than an average to above-average player. There also was a significant portion of his career where he was below average.

He became a regular rotation player in 1978. His OPS+ each season was:

1978: 80
1979: 113
1980: 135
1981: 100
1982: 142
1983: 149
1984: 149
1985: 152
1986: 121
1987: 157
1988: 106
1989: 89
1990: 99
1991: 103

I'll stop after 1991 because he played only 44 games in the next 2 season. I realize that OPS+ isn't the be all end all of statistics, but it is park and league adjusted so it accounts for the steroid era.

1982-1985, 1987 were all great seasons. That is 5 great seasons. Hell, I'll go ahead and give you that 1980 was a great season, which is a stretch, to give you a total of 6 seasons. Rest of his career was above/below average in comparison to other players of his time, not the steroid era. It just isn't enough. Great player for 5 season and a great human being, not a Hall of Famer.

[MartyFunkhouser]

Do you know how many hitters whose best years were during the decade of the 1980's are in the Hall of Fame? 13: Reggie Jackson, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Kirby Puckett, Dave Winfield, Ozzie Smith, Gary Carter, Eddie Murray, Ryne Sandberg, Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken, Jim Rice, and Andre Dawson.

Of those, 7 played primarily in the AL during that time. That leaves 3B Mike Schmidt, SS Ozzie Smith, C Gary Carter, 2B Ryne Sandberg, and OF Tony Gwynn and Andre Dawson.

Murph's stats are inarguably better than Smith and Carter, who got in because of the positions they played. As a slugger, his numbers are better than Sandberg, who hit .285 for his career, compared to Murph's .265. But Sandberg had only 282 HR's and 1,061 RBI, compared to Murph's 398 and 1,266. Gwynn got in by virtue of his high average (he was undoubtedly the best pure hitter of his era). Schmidt was definitely the class of the 80's. But you can't tell me that Andre Dawson is HOF-worthy, and Murph is not. Dawson's numbers are a little better (and he played a little longer). But compare Dawson's 8 All Star appearances to Murph's 7, Dawson had 7 Gold Gloves to Murph's 5 (all in center field). They each had 4 silver sluggers. And Murph has 2 MVP's, to Dawson's 1 (Dawson finished 2nd to Murph in 1983).

So, for the 80's, 4 AL outfielders are in the Hall; 2 NL outfielders are in the Hall. There should be 3.

A couple of thoughts.

Gary Carter has no business being in the Hall of Fame. I may very well agree with you that Murphy is more deserving than Carter, but one mistake doesn't justify another.

Ozzie Smith is certainly not in for his offensive contributions. I don't have a huge opinion one way or the other on Smith. However, if we are going to factor in total contribution let's look at WAR. Ozzie Smith's career WAR was 73.0 (with dWAR of 43.4). Murphy's career WAR was 42.6 (with a dWAR of -7.6). Gold Gloves are a terrible way to evaluate a player's defensive contribution. I don't care enough to go digging through other defensive statistics, but by WAR Murphy was an average to below/average fielder through his career. Smith got in for defense, so the fact that Murphy's offensive numbers are better doesn't mean much.

Andre Dawson is a guy that I don't really think belongs in the Hall of Fame, so, again, one mistake doesn't justify another. However, Dawson does have a higher career WAR than Murphy.

[wuapinmon]

A couple of thoughts.

Gary Carter has no business being in the Hall of Fame. I may very well agree with you that Murphy is more deserving than Carter, but one mistake doesn't justify another.

Ozzie Smith is certainly not in for his offensive contributions. I don't have a huge opinion one way or the other on Smith. However, if we are going to factor in total contribution let's look at WAR. Ozzie Smith's career WAR was 73.0 (with dWAR of 43.4). Murphy's career WAR was 42.6 (with a dWAR of -7.6). Gold Gloves are a terrible way to evaluate a player's defensive contribution. I don't care enough to go digging through other defensive statistics, but by WAR Murphy was an average to below/average fielder through his career. Smith got in for defense, so the fact that Murphy's offensive numbers are better doesn't mean much.

Andre Dawson is a guy that I don't really think belongs in the Hall of Fame, so, again, one mistake doesn't justify another. However, Dawson does have a higher career WAR than Murphy.

http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/...election/bbwaa

Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

I am not a fan of stats being the only measure by which HOF consideration takes place. Some things cannot be quantified. Murphy is hard to quantify, no matter how many ways we parse the available stats. The record is just one of many factors listed as voting criteria. And, there are no weights given to each category. That's up to the voters. But, stats are only one dimension of a game.

[Mormon Red Death]

Do you know how many hitters whose best years were during the decade of the 1980's are in the Hall of Fame? 13: Reggie Jackson, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Kirby Puckett, Dave Winfield, Ozzie Smith, Gary Carter, Eddie Murray, Ryne Sandberg, Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken, Jim Rice, and Andre Dawson.

Of those, 7 played primarily in the AL during that time. That leaves 3B Mike Schmidt, SS Ozzie Smith, C Gary Carter, 2B Ryne Sandberg, and OF Tony Gwynn and Andre Dawson.

Murph's stats are inarguably better than Smith and Carter, who got in because of the positions they played. As a slugger, his numbers are better than Sandberg, who hit .285 for his career, compared to Murph's .265. But Sandberg had only 282 HR's and 1,061 RBI, compared to Murph's 398 and 1,266. Gwynn got in by virtue of his high average (he was undoubtedly the best pure hitter of his era). Schmidt was definitely the class of the 80's. But you can't tell me that Andre Dawson is HOF-worthy, and Murph is not. Dawson's numbers are a little better (and he played a little longer). But compare Dawson's 8 All Star appearances to Murph's 7, Dawson had 7 Gold Gloves to Murph's 5 (all in center field). They each had 4 silver sluggers. And Murph has 2 MVP's, to Dawson's 1 (Dawson finished 2nd to Murph in 1983).

So, for the 80's, 4 AL outfielders are in the Hall; 2 NL outfielders are in the Hall. There should be 3.

The greatest 2nd baseman ever (ryne sandberg)'s best year was 1990. He hit .306 and had 40 homeruns on his way to the mvp. He was also the gold gove that year (like every year). 91 and 92 were good years for him too.

Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2

[Indy Coug]

[MartyFunkhouser]

Just to throw one more thing into the mix on Dale Murphy.

The JAWS rating puts him out of the Hall of Fame.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/jaws.shtml

42.6 career WAR/39.0 7yr-peak WAR/40.8 JAWS
Average HOF CF (out of 18) = 67.1 career WAR/42.5 7yr-peak WAR/54.8 JAWS

[SoCalCoug]

Just to throw one more thing into the mix on Dale Murphy.

The JAWS rating puts him out of the Hall of Fame.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/jaws.shtml

42.6 career WAR/39.0 7yr-peak WAR/40.8 JAWS
Average HOF CF (out of 18) = 67.1 career WAR/42.5 7yr-peak WAR/54.8 JAWS

And yet he's still above 6 HOF center fielders.

Sabermetrics doesn't account for a number of things, including awards and other accolades. Does it account for defense?

At the time, he was one of the dominant sluggers in the game. He was 2-time MVP, he was gold-glove center fielder, and his intangibles are off the chart.

I know you prefer a more exclusive HOF, but that's not reality. He deserves enshrinement.

[wapiti]

Just to throw one more thing into the mix on Dale Murphy.

The JAWS rating puts him out of the Hall of Fame.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/jaws.shtml

42.6 career WAR/39.0 7yr-peak WAR/40.8 JAWS
Average HOF CF (out of 18) = 67.1 career WAR/42.5 7yr-peak WAR/54.8 JAWS

I have no idea what any of those numbers mean. However, wouldn't you compare him with the lowest rated HOF, not the average?

[SoCalCoug]

Here's a metric that puts Murph well in the discussion, virtually equal with Dawson, and ranked ahead of such Hall of Famers as Willie McCovey, Richie Ashburn, Willie Stargell, Roy Campanella, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson, and Enos Slaughter.

I'm sure you'll argue that they don't deserve enshrinement, either, but they're in. As long as they're in, there's no reason Murph shouldn't be. This isn't going to open a floodgate of other inductees. The class of the 80's for the NL has always been Schmidt, Gwynn, Dawson, Carter, Smith, Sandberg, and Murphy.

[SoCalCoug]

In fact, on the metric I posted, there are 125 batters listed above Murphy. Only 15 of those who are HOF-eligible are not in the HOF. Below Murph are 21 Hall of Famers.

I'm not saying he's a first-ballot guy, but he certainly belongs with them.

[MartyFunkhouser]

And yet he's still above 6 HOF center fielders.

Sabermetrics doesn't account for a number of things, including awards and other accolades. Does it account for defense?

At the time, he was one of the dominant sluggers in the game. He was 2-time MVP, he was gold-glove center fielder, and his intangibles are off the chart.

I know you prefer a more exclusive HOF, but that's not reality. He deserves enshrinement.

Awards and accolades are things that really shouldn't be considered. MVPs, Gold Gloves, All-Star appearances are all bad measures for determining Hall of Fame eligibility.

Murphy has Gold Gloves, but the Sabermetric stats put him at an average fielder.