Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Snip snip!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    About as ridiculous

    MISHNA I.: Cattle must not be placed in the inns of the heathens because they are suspicious of having sexual intercourse with them. 1 And for the same reason a female must not stay alone with them, because they are suspected of insult; nor should a male stay with them alone, because they are suspected of bloodshed.

    GEMARA: There is a contradiction from the following: One may buy from them cattle for sacrificing without fear that it was instrumental in the committing of a crime or that it was separated as a sacrifice to an idol, or that it was itself worshipped. Now it is correct that there is no fear of its being separated or worshipped, for if such were the case, he would not sell it. But why should not be feared its said relation to a crime, and they not suspected? Said R. Ta'hlipha in the name of R. Shila b. Abina, quoting Rabh: With his own cattle, the heathen is not suspected, because of his economy that the cattle should not become uprooted. This, however, can apply only to female cattle; what can be said concerning male cattle? Said R. Kahana: Here, also, the same reason may apply, as the cattle become meagre from such employment. But why must one not place female cattle in the inns which are under the control of females? Said Mar Uqua b. Hama: Because the heathens are wont to visit the wives of their neighbors, and if such visitor happened not to find the hostess, he may substitute the cattle.

    p. 42

    [paragraph continues] And to the question of the schoolmen: How is the law with fowls? R. Jehudah in the name of Samuel, quoting R. Hannina, said: I have seen a heathen who bought a goose in the market, sexually intercoursed with it, chopped, roasted and consumed it, and R. Jeremiah of Diphte said that he had witnessed a similar affair by an Arabian.

    Rabbina said: There is no contradiction between the Boraitha cited, which does not consider suspicion, and the Mishna which does, as the Mishna speaks of starting, which is forbidden and the Boraitha speaks of a case which was already done, where suspicion is no sufficient basis for forbidding. And whence do we know that such difference is considered? From a Mishna which states that a woman captured by a heathen because of a civil case is allowed to her husband, but not if captured because of a criminal case. We see, then, that although our Mishna forbids a woman to stay alone with a heathen, yet the act having taken place, she is allowed to return (hence there is a difference between starting an act and an act done). But perhaps the reason why she is allowed to her husband when captured because of a civil case, is that the heathen was afraid to touch her lest he lose his money? And such seems to be the case, as the second part states: If because of a criminal case, she is not allowed; and to this discussion nothing is to be added. R. Pdath said: The difference between our Mishna and the Boraitha is to be explained thus: The former is in accordance with R. Eliezer of a Mishna (par. II. i), and the Boraitha is in accordance with the rabbis thereof, as according to the former, the red cow must not be bought from a heathen; and according to the latter, it may. And the reason is the above suspicion which, according to one, is considered, and according to the other, it is not. But perhaps there is another reason, as Shila explained. The reason of R. Eliezer is, in the following [Numb. xix. 2]: "Speak unto the children of Israel that they bring unto thee a completely red cow," which signifies that the children of Israel shall bring, but not other nations? This cannot scarcely be the reason, as the latter part states: "And so has Eliezer invalidated all the sacrifices which were bought from heathens," to which the above reason cannot apply, as concerning them such an expression is not used. But perhaps the rabbis differ with R. Eliezer concerning the red cow only because of its great value, which the heathens would not like to lose; but concerning other sacrifices, would they agree with R. Eliezer? Nay;

    p. 43

    in the first place there is a Boraitha: One may buy from them cattle for the purpose of sacrificing, which would be neither in accordance with the rabbis, nor with R. Eliezer; and secondly, it states there plainly: The rabbis have answered to R. Eliezer with [Is. lx. 7]: "All the flocks of Kedar . . . upon my altar." But is, indeed, "suspicion" the reason of R. Eliezer's statement; is there not a Boraitha: The sages then said to R. Eliezer: We know of a case that the red cow was bought from a heathen by the name of Dama or Remetz; and he answered: This is no evidence, as the Israelites had watched over it from the time it was created? R. Eliezer's reason was both--the expression concerning a red cow cited above, and also "suspicion."
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
      Your story blows my mind (I am a little skeptical). These kinds of surgeries are so commonplace among LDS now that they hardly warrant a raised eyebrow. Especially for cases like this where there are clear medical complications involved. I have no problem with a bishop or SP counseling people not to take such decisions lightly but the notion that someone would need to OK such a decision with a church leader is absurd.
      Originally posted by hostile View Post
      I agree.

      It also wouldn't surprise me that there are individuals who feel they need to seek the OK and that there are church leaders who feel it is important to give advice beyond what BP has stated.
      This occurred about 15 years ago in a small struggling stake. It doesn't sound like it, but they are one of the most down to earth couples I know. They are good people and would be considered cafeteria Mormons, despite both of them holding numerous leadership positions in their stake.

      We moved into their ward about 5 years after the event ocurred. They may have been a little more straight laced back then. I don't know all the details, but she was the one who told us what happened. I have no reason to doubt her.

      I hear you, it's such a commonplace procedure that her story sounds a little bizarre. But at the same time, you have the CHOI that hasn't changed its position in years. Why couldn't this story happen again today, given the right environment?
      "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
      "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
      - SeattleUte

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
        This occurred about 15 years ago in a small struggling stake. It doesn't sound like it, but they are one of the most down to earth couples I know. They are good people and would be considered cafeteria Mormons, despite both of them holding numerous leadership positions in their stake.

        We moved into their ward about 5 years after the event ocurred. They may have been a little more straight laced back then. I don't know all the details, but she was the one who told us what happened. I have no reason to doubt her.

        I hear you, it's such a commonplace procedure that her story sounds a little bizarre. But at the same time, you have the CHOI that hasn't changed its position in years. Why couldn't this story happen again today, given the right environment?
        Oh, I don't doubt it could happen. If you live long enough you will see everything. But I don't think the CHOI text is quite as draconian as you seem to imply. Nevertheless, I would prefer to see them soften the language a bit. For example, change the text to "some members may wish to consult with their bishop". I can see cases where consulting with the bishop would ease some guilt regarding the decision. Most bishops are decent people and wouldn't presume to overstep their bounds on something like this.

        In general, I don't have a problem with the church urging caution on sterilization. I was shocked at some of my relatives who got snipped for convenience after 1-2 kids and still in late 20's. Sure enough, some of them regretted it later.
        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
          I think you are overstating what it says:
          Let me bold it differently:

          The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.

          I chose sterilization becuase we both felt at peace with the number of our children. My wife started getting high blood pressure with the last pregnancy. Could have harmed a subsequent child, but I doubt her life would have been at risk. We did not make sure this condition was determined by competent medical judgement, nor did we feel the need to wait for confirmation through prayer. We did not talk to our bishop.

          I hear you about the vagueness of the statement. But my question is why the hell is it there in the first place??? I know more than one bishop who would take this to heart, were he placed in that situation.
          "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
          "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
          - SeattleUte

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
            Let me bold it differently:

            The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.

            I chose sterilization becuase we both felt at peace with the number of our children. My wife started getting high blood pressure with the last pregnancy. Could have harmed a subsequent child, but I doubt her life would have been at risk. We did not make sure this condition was determined by competent medical judgement, nor did we feel the need to wait for confirmation through prayer. We did not talk to our bishop.

            I hear you about the vagueness of the statement. But my question is why the hell is it there in the first place??? I know more than one bishop who would take this to heart, were he placed in that situation.
            I think we are mostly in agreement.

            Yet more evidence that having the CHOI public is not necessarily a good thing. When I got snipped (doctor's orders) I didn't dream of talking with the bishop. Never crossed my mind for a second.
            "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
            "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
            "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
              Oh, I don't doubt it could happen. If you live long enough you will see everything. But I don't think the CHOI text is quite as draconian as you seem to imply. Nevertheless, I would prefer to see them soften the language a bit. For example, change the text to "some members may wish to consult with their bishop". I can see cases where consulting with the bishop would ease some guilt regarding the decision. Most bishops are decent people and wouldn't presume to overstep their bounds on something like this.

              In general, I don't have a problem with the church urging caution on sterilization. I was shocked at some of my relatives who got snipped for convenience after 1-2 kids and still in late 20's. Sure enough, some of them regretted it later.
              I agree that most bishops wouldn't take the CHOI advice literally. I think most of them wouldn't even dare to potentially cause ill feelings for something that should stay a couple's decision. I also don't have a problem with the church urging caution. So why not something like this?

              "In general, the church opposes elective surgical sterilization. Nevertheless, matters of family planning are best left to the husband and wife. If asked, the bishop should counsel that the decision should be made after careful consideration, including prayer if needed."
              "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
              "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
              - SeattleUte

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                I agree that most bishops wouldn't take the CHOI advice literally. I think most of them wouldn't even dare to potentially cause ill feelings for something that should stay a couple's decision. I also don't have a problem with the church urging caution. So why not something like this?

                "In general, the church opposes elective surgical sterilization. Nevertheless, matters of family planning are best left to the husband and wife. If asked, the bishop should counsel that the decision should be made after careful consideration, including prayer if needed."
                Works for me.
                "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                Comment


                • #23
                  That bishop should have not let it get past him. What a waste of time.
                  "Don't expect I'll see you 'till after the race"

                  "So where does the power come from to see the race to its end...from within"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Who's supposed to read the CHOI? I've never been told/encouraged to read it, but I have been given sections of it depending on the calling. I know a large section of it is now online, but that wasn't the cased until recently.

                    How are members supposed to know to do this if not by reading the manual?

                    Disclaimer: I'm not claiming ignorance here, but I've always been under the assumption that these manuals are for the leaders. Is it the leaders responsibility to disseminate the information therein to the congregation? I've never heard this topic addressed in church by leaders.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I'm a little surprised that the vast majority of responders have either been, or will be, snipped. Something deep down in my core rejects the idea of self-sterilization, as if it were the suicide of masculinity. Barring an unexpected health emergency, I'll never do it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by beefytee View Post
                        Who's supposed to read the CHOI? I've never been told/encouraged to read it, but I have been given sections of it depending on the calling. I know a large section of it is now online, but that wasn't the cased until recently.

                        How are members supposed to know to do this if not by reading the manual?

                        Disclaimer: I'm not claiming ignorance here, but I've always been under the assumption that these manuals are for the leaders. Is it the leaders responsibility to disseminate the information therein to the congregation? I've never heard this topic addressed in church by leaders.
                        Nor have I...and perhaps that is the point. The guidance is there if it is asked for, otherwise, the lord trusts that we'll make that decision on our own. With so many members and each one of them in a different place on the "path" if you will, some will seek guidance on what toothpaste to use, or whether or not to get snipped. Others are quite comfortable making those decisions for themselves.

                        Were I in a position to advise, I'd probably tell them whath the CHOI says and add that it is still their decision to make on there own (and politely tell them to get out of my office and not bring their trivial problems to me )
                        "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

                        Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          What great timing. I had my initial consultation with the urologist yesterday. I feel pretty good about the whole thing, especially because the Doc is Chinese so I don't have any inadequacy issues.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Perhaps this will cause a new list to be created in the MLS system. We already have lists for homes with or without Elders, members with expired temple recommends, and now we can have a snip/not snipped list. Fantastic!
                            "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

                            Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
                              I'm a little surprised that the vast majority of responders have either been, or will be, snipped. Something deep down in my core rejects the idea of self-sterilization, as if it were the suicide of masculinity. Barring an unexpected health emergency, I'll never do it.
                              I'm not sure what method you are using but they all suck compared to being snipped.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by RC Vikings View Post
                                I'm not sure what method you are using but they all suck compared to being snipped.
                                It is a lot like concealed carry... walking around with a loaded gun isn't for everyone, but it is important that some of accept it as a personal responsibility.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X