Podcast Central

[UVACoug]

THey never discuss it, but I remember from Jay's first interview (I think) that he mentions the "Silver Spring" call while he is with Adnan in the car.

Are you referring to the police interview they played on the podcast, or something you read on reddit (or somewhere else). That seems like a pretty significant detail and might change my opinion about his innocence. I'll go back and listen if it was in one of the episodes.

[Donuthole]

Podcast Central

I listened to all 12 episodes of Serial on my drive up and back to Utah.

I'm in Cardiac's camp: Adnan did it, but there's not enough evidence to convict.

While it's difficult to understand why his attorney didn't have the girl in the library testify at either trial, it's unbelievable that his attorney didn't do more to combat the cell phone timeline at trial. As I understand it, that was the key demonstrative used by the prosecution at trial. They put up a blow up of the call log with adjacent blanks and then filled the blanks in with the testimony of Jay. But as discussed, ad nauseum, the cell tower pings don't match up with Jay's testimony until about 6 pm. That is a huge sword with which to lay waste to the prosecution's demonstrative (and entire theory of the case). As a trial attorney, I always make damn sure any demonstrative I use is rock solid, because the other side has every right to use my demonstrative. I can't understand why defense counsel wasn't shredding that demonstrative to bits with the cell tower info.

That said, I felt the podcast was a bit disappointing as a whole. Koenig was quick to dismiss things she found unimportant or unhelpful and quick to embrace things she liked. She spent at least half an episode debunking the Best Buy location by "proving" the absence of any pay phone, only to later admit that the building plans show a pay phone in the Best Buy vestibule. Her conclusion is that "maybe there was a pay phone there." Maybe? Really? And why wasn't that noticed on the plans the first time they viewed them? Confirmation bias?

Notably, Koenig does not then go back and admit that the Best Buy parking lot could not be ruled out as a place where the murder happened and is possibly a strength and not a weakness of Jay's testimony. There were a handful of similar issues throughout the podcast, though I can't remember them off the top of my head.

[old_gregg]

There were a handful of similar issues throughout the podcast, though I can't remember them off the top of my head.

how about assuming that driving to best buy from the school in 2014 was in any way illustrative of what making the same drive was like in 1999? and i love that the obvious, easiest answer that adnan is in fact a sociopath is dismissed by a random law professor who says she herself has never seen a sociopath in the wild, so koenig couldn't have been lucky enough to get one on her first try. that's dumb.

[Donuthole]

Podcast Central

how about assuming that driving to best buy from the school in 2014 was in any way illustrative of what making the same drive was like in 1999?

Yep, that was another one. So many variables in that equation, but they do it on their first try 15 years later, so it must be possible, right? The whole thing turns on a couple minutes, but during the entire reenactment I kept thinking "they have absolutely no idea how long Hae talked to the concession stand lady, so what good does this even do?"

I thought this mashup critique was kinda funny:
http://vimeo.com/115237701

[ERCougar]

I'm only 3 or 4 episodes in so maybe she hits this later, but my biggest question right now is why Adnan never tried to contact Hae after the police called him looking for her. It seems like he and Hae were still in pretty close contact up to that point, at least close enough that he would send a "where are you? The cops are looking for you" message.

My running theory: Adnan hired Jay to do it and then backed out of whatever payment he had promised him.

[Commando]

Nerdist.com has a bunch of awesome podcasts. I have kind of forsaken the rest of my podcasts b/c there are too many good ones on Nerdist.

[Northwestcoug]

That said, I felt the podcast was a bit disappointing as a whole. Koenig was quick to dismiss things she found unimportant or unhelpful and quick to embrace things she liked. She spent at least half an episode debunking the Best Buy location by "proving" the absence of any pay phone, only to later admit that the building plans show a pay phone in the Best Buy vestibule. Her conclusion is that "maybe there was a pay phone there." Maybe? Really? And why wasn't that noticed on the plans the first time they viewed them? Confirmation bias?

Notably, Koenig does not then go back and admit that the Best Buy parking lot could not be ruled out as a place where the murder happened and is possibly a strength and not a weakness of Jay's testimony. There were a handful of similar issues throughout the podcast, though I can't remember them off the top of my head.

I thought she didn't find the architectural plans for best buy until the end of the podcast, no? From what I recall, she didn't have them when she first talked about the pay phone problem, but she was able to find them later.

[Donuthole]

I thought she didn't find the architectural plans for best buy until the end of the podcast, no? From what I recall, she didn't have them when she first talked about the pay phone problem, but she was able to find them later.

So she spent a year researching the case before they started recording the podcast, but she didn't find the building plans until 11 weeks into the podcast? That seems convenient. Building plans are all kept on file with the city/county. Wouldn't that be the first place you'd look to see if there was ever a pay phone? Why wasn't that somewhere they looked when they spent hours and hours looking online for evidence of a pay phone? Even if she didn't come across them until later, that causes me to question the thoroughness of their research. Also, I suppose part of the problem with serial storytelling/journalism is that the writer gets to pick and choose the order in which she shares the information. The listener, therefore, doesn't know if the information is being intentionally withheld or if it really wasn't available previously.

[old_gregg]

I thought she didn't find the architectural plans for best buy until the end of the podcast, no? From what I recall, she didn't have them when she first talked about the pay phone problem, but she was able to find them later.

the payphone thing illustrates the entire problem with the story. people do not accurately remember the small details on which this case turns, and the stuff we do know is not probative. i am interested to see what happens with the post conviction motion though.

[Northwestcoug]

So she spent a year researching the case before they started recording the podcast, but she didn't find the building plans until 11 weeks into the podcast? That seems convenient. Building plans are all kept on file with the city/county. Wouldn't that be the first place you'd look to see if there was ever a pay phone? Why wasn't that somewhere they looked when they spent hours and hours looking online for evidence of a pay phone? Even if she didn't come across them until later, that causes me to question the thoroughness of their research. Also, I suppose part of the problem with serial storytelling/journalism is that the writer gets to pick and choose the order in which she shares the information. The listener, therefore, doesn't know if the information is being intentionally withheld or if it really wasn't available previously.

I'm not arguing for the thoroughness of her research. The podcast is, after all, entertainment. She doesn't have the resources or the aim to prove new ground that would get Adnan out of jail. So I'm not going to criticize her too much for telling a good story.

That said (and again this is me remembering from weeks ago), I thought she had try to get both the telephone company and best buy plans before, but those weren't available. Then later she was able to get the architectural plans. I didn't see it as withholding information to tell a good story. It's certainly possible that she isn't telling the story straight, but I hope not. I mean, listen to her voice! She wouldn't do that to me!

[Applejack]

Here's a question from someone who knows nothing about obtaining warrants for cell phone records (me!):

If I recall correctly, the prosecutor could track all of Adnan's outgoing calls (thus, they knew about the Neisha call, etc). But for incoming calls they only had time information (the Best Buy call is a short call, but without identifying information). So was there really no way to correlate the incoming calls with a phone number/caller? Is that still the case?

[Donuthole]

Here's a question from someone who knows nothing about obtaining warrants for cell phone records (me!):

If I recall correctly, the prosecutor could track all of Adnan's outgoing calls (thus, they knew about the Neisha call, etc). But for incoming calls they only had time information (the Best Buy call is a short call, but without identifying information). So was there really no way to correlate the incoming calls with a phone number/caller? Is that still the case?

Unless you get the records for the phone from which the incoming call was placed. Why didn't his attorney and/or the prosecution subpoena the phone company for the pay phone records, and also subpoena the records from all of the other phones involved that day (Jen's home phone, any other number called by Adnan's phone that day, the officer's phones, etc.)? Maybe they did, but it sure seemed like there was a lot of "was this 4:15 call the one from the officer or was it the 4:22 call?" going on.

[Applejack]

Unless you get the records for the phone from which the incoming call was placed. Why didn't his attorney and/or the prosecution subpoena the phone company for the pay phone records, and also subpoena the records from all of the other phones involved that day (Jen's home phone, any other number called by Adnan's phone that day, the officer's phones, etc.)? Maybe they did, but it sure seemed like there was a lot of "was this 4:15 call the one from the officer or was it the 4:22 call?" going on.

Right, that was my question. Why not get the information from all of the relevant phones you can find? It seemed like the prosecution's entire incoming call record consisted of "this is probably when Adnan called from Best Buy."

[old_gregg]

jay speaks out. aren't parts of this inconsistent with his trial testimony?

[UVACoug]

I'm only 3 or 4 episodes in so maybe she hits this later, but my biggest question right now is why Adnan never tried to contact Hae after the police called him looking for her. It seems like he and Hae were still in pretty close contact up to that point, at least close enough that he would send a "where are you? The cops are looking for you" message.

My running theory: Adnan hired Jay to do it and then backed out of whatever payment he had promised him.

I don't put a lot of weight on that. She didn't have a cell phone, and he had only had his for a day. They had to sneak behind their parents' backs to talk to each other. I'm not sure that paging her would have done much good. If she was alive and wanted to talk, she would have called him. Communication in 1999 was much different than it is today where everyone is connected to a cell phone 24/7.