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  • Afghanistan: What now?

    So with Osama and taekwondave both gone forever (however to decidedly different residences), what do we do now in Afghanistan? I was totally for going in, but now is the time to get out. The primary reason for our incursion is now dead, and al Qaeda, while still very much alive, is in disarray. Given Afghanistan's milennia of tribal rule and customs, I think true democratization isn't going to happen in our lifetimes; why spend another pint of American blood to effect change where it's very unlikely to happen?

    I grieve for the women and girls who will suffer again under Taliban rule, but such hardships are found all over the world. In the long run, any meaningful change has to come from within. We can reward that with trade and other incentives, but a military presence isn't going to git 'er done. I hope Obama uses some of the political capital he's just received by declaring victory in Afghanistan and bringing the U.S. troops home. Fast.

    I admit I've become more doveish in my dotage, and I'm open to persuasive arguments to stick around militarily in Kabul. Does anyone have one?

  • #2
    I agree. Get out and fast. I feel the same way about Iraq. With what has happened in the Middle East the last few months, the sooner we leave the sooner we leave the sooner those countries can get to having their own revolution.
    A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. - Mohammad Ali

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    • #3
      Tough call. The original intent was to throw out the Taliban and also to get al Quaeda.

      Attempting democratization of that nation is a fools errand. It is the place where great empires have gone to die. The local warlords sometimes plow under the roads we built after we pull out, just to regain their original power of the locale.

      We would be better to keep an important base, maybe Kabul, and just let the tribes run their own country. Maybe if we could (finally) change the rules of engagement to provide support for the locals and to let our Predators, etc, operate at night and take out the Taliban convoys we would be able to draw down significantly while keeping the Taliban from siezing control again.

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      • #4
        I think it would be a mistake to pull out now.
        "Nobody listens to Turtle."
        -Turtle
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Surfah View Post
          I think it would be a mistake to pull out now.
          When you say "pull out", do you mean "completely", or are you also opposed to a partial draw down of forces?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Surfah View Post
            I think it would be a mistake to pull out now.
            the timing of pulling out is a difficult thing to pull off.
            Dyslexics are teople poo...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
              When you say "pull out", do you mean "completely", or are you also opposed to a partial draw down of forces?
              I don't care to see a partial draw down. At least not right now.
              "Nobody listens to Turtle."
              -Turtle
              sigpic

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Surfah View Post
                I think it would be a mistake to pull out now.
                What are the achieveable circumstances that would warrant a pullout? In other words, when would you say, "Okay, we can leave now"?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                  the timing of pulling out is a difficult thing to pull off.
                  Very.
                  "Nobody listens to Turtle."
                  -Turtle
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                    What are the achieveable circumstances that would warrant a pullout? In other words, when would you say, "Okay, we can leave now"?
                    It depends on who else we can take out within a reasonable time frame. If it's going to take 10 years to flush out the Al-Qaeda in Yemen like it took for us to get Osama then I don't think it's worth it. I think pulling out now, just because we got Osama sends a poor message to our enemy and to our troops. I'd prefer to see a concerted effort of strikes to neutralize the enemy elsewhere, particularly Yemen. I hold no illusion that we can eradicate terrorism and Al-Qaeda, but we need to let these terrorists know that it wasn't just about Osama. If over the next 6-12 months we can land some devastating blows to the Al-Qaeda network I'd support a withdraw in a year's time while maintaining a presence there in the gulf and on the ground in select places.
                    "Nobody listens to Turtle."
                    -Turtle
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                      So with Osama and taekwondave both gone forever (however to decidedly different residences), what do we do now in Afghanistan? I was totally for going in, but now is the time to get out. The primary reason for our incursion is now dead, and al Qaeda, while still very much alive, is in disarray. Given Afghanistan's milennia of tribal rule and customs, I think true democratization isn't going to happen in our lifetimes; why spend another pint of American blood to effect change where it's very unlikely to happen?

                      I grieve for the women and girls who will suffer again under Taliban rule, but such hardships are found all over the world. In the long run, any meaningful change has to come from within. We can reward that with trade and other incentives, but a military presence isn't going to git 'er done. I hope Obama uses some of the political capital he's just received by declaring victory in Afghanistan and bringing the U.S. troops home. Fast.

                      I admit I've become more doveish in my dotage, and I'm open to persuasive arguments to stick around militarily in Kabul. Does anyone have one?

                      I am tired of policing the world. It is draining us. This is what we did to the Soviet Union. Arms race and we had a lot more money.

                      I would announce the new policy. We are not coming in to change countries, you can do that from within if you want. However, if your country is doing something that is totally against our best interests, you saw what we did to Bin Laden.

                      From now on F your airspace. Just to show how serious we are, Ghadafi you have 5 days to arrange your affairs and get the hell out. If you don't, here is a pic of Bin Laden for you to gaze upon as you go to sleep each night.

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                      • #12
                        Killing OBL was not the primary reason we invaded. If he had been killed in the first week of the invasion would we have stopped? Of course not. We were after the Taliban and Al Qaeda and we wanted to project our power in the mid east. OBL dead is nice, but it has no significant effect on achieving our goals. If we have achieved them, or have concluded we cant, then we shoudl leave. Otherwise we stay. If you are asking if we shoudl use OBL's death as a cover for leaving becasue we cant achieve our goals, that is a different issue.
                        PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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                        • #13
                          Responding to both Surfah and creek, yes, I'd be using Osama's death as cover for our withdrawal. His death wasn't the only reason to have gone into Afghanistan, of course, but my sense is that the larger goal--obliterating or at least greatly diminishing the threat of terrorism coming out of that country--has been achieved as much as can be reasonably expected. With a large military footprint, and what's left of al Qaeda consisting of small cells and lone wolves (or so I assume), it seems like we're wielding a huge sledgehammer as we go after gnats, even very troubling gnats. I'm liking the use of predator drones and surgical strikes much more than division-sized military contingents.

                          But perhaps that large presence is what makes the use of surgical strikes and drones possible--I don't know. Can't we deal with the remnants of al Qaeda in Afghanistan, or in Yemen and other countries, without having to have tens of thousands of our armed forces in Afghanistan? Unless the answer is clearly "no" (and I'll defer to the more knowledgable for that answer), I say let's get out.

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                          • #14
                            The Afghans call summer the fighting season. I say we try to land some haymakers until early fall and then begin a drawdown.

                            We should be out of Iraq entirely by now.

                            The cynic in me (and he's about twice my actual size) says that Obama will have that done about a week before the polls open in 2012.

                            Off topic but I think his calling and election was made sure Sunday evening.
                            The Holy War is over, and Utah won - Federal Ute

                            Think of how stupid the average American is. Then remember that half are even dumber than that. - George Carlin

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Borderline Divine View Post
                              The Afghans call summer the fighting season. I say we try to land some haymakers until early fall and then begin a drawdown.

                              We should be out of Iraq entirely by now.

                              The cynic in me (and he's about twice my actual size) says that Obama will have that done about a week before the polls open in 2012.

                              Off topic but I think his calling and election was made sure Sunday evening.
                              In the life to come, perhaps. But as for the here and now, he should consult with GHWB who, less than two years before the next presidential election was riding a post-Gulf War approval wave of >90%, and whose reelection was so certain the Dems decided to offer as a sacrificial lamb some unknown cigar aficionado from Arkansas.

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