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  • Originally posted by falafel View Post
    This is true in my personal experience.
    Somebody told me that about you.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by swampfrog View Post
      Strategy number two is the "sneaky male", this is also common in many other species. If a male can propagate without the responsibility of child-rearing, it's like winning the evolutionary multi-state lottery. Women are typically very guarded against the sneaky male because of the high cost. It doesn't succeed often, but often enough that it remains viable. Men are hyper alert for this strategy because it has such great evolutionary rewards.

      Egalitarian males searching for fulfillment through the first strategy look for beauty foremost in women. However, only those who have managed a high degree of self-discipline can completely ignore hot. Hot triggers strategy number two. Watch the video if the full ramifications of that are not overwhelmingly obvious. Females actively displaying hot are going to attract the attention of males hoping to win the lottery. This is not a conscious choice, it's simply what evolution has left us with.

      Females also have corresponding strategies for reproduction. What social norms should we aspire to such that strategy number one is maximized?
      Case in point for the sneaky male. Tinder is probably even more likely to draw out the "sneaky male" strategy than porn. The "consent culture" once understood by males, may become just another form of leverage to convince women they are going to get what they do not know they want.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/s...d=tw-nytstyles

      Comment


      • Originally posted by swampfrog View Post
        I'm going to plug this podcast again. Different thread, but similar ideas.



        Someday I'm going to write up my thoughts in a more formal essay (most likely with a theme of modesty) on what I've understood from these two and a few other resources. Just to get it out of my head in a single place. The following is summarized from the video.

        It is strangely almost universal that all surviving patterns of species propagation involve a male and female pattern. Covering the realms of both flora and fauna. Species survival is entirely predicated on the adaptation for change. Evolution solves the problem in almost all cases by combining the genetic material of two very similar but different entities. Produce a lot of offspring and see which mutations survive. Slight genetic differences are selected for over time. The male pattern is to produce a lot of genetic material and to be somewhat promiscuous, the female pattern is to produce a limited amount of genetic material, but be very selective and restrictive about access. Even in flowers where both patterns exist simultaneously this behavior is observed.

        If the male patterns for reproductive success are examined, multiple strategies exist. It's not that the males are trying multiple ideas to see what works, it is simply that genetic variation allows for innumerable different tactics. Strategies emerge by selecting those which successfully propagate. Propagation requires not only that offspring are produced, but that multiple generations succeed. There is huge strategic variation across the animal kingdom but what is interesting is that even within a single species, more than one emerges. It is common to find a dominant pattern and several alternatives. Humans are by far the most complicated beings, the successful strategies in humans should be expected to be complicated, and they are.

        Three main strategies have emerged over time. Understanding them requires first acknowledging that humans require the longest rearing period of all animal offspring. Human brains continue to develop for nearly 30 years. The result is a being that has magnificent moment to moment adaptability. High cost, high reward. For the human species to survive, parenting had to evolve alongside to account for the length of time required before a human child becomes self maintaining. Successful strategies have to account for this. The advent of nearly perfect birth control is a recent discovery in evolutionary terms and has not had any discernible effect on strategy. Birth control and modern medicine have dramatically reduced the risk for the females and young offspring. Prior to birth control, sex was playing the baby lottery, and having to raise an infant in solidarity would have been very difficult. The biological and psychological effects of this still drive modern day species propagation.

        Strategy number one is cooperative partner pair-bonding. A male and female commit to a long term relationship. The woman is vulnerable because evolution has adapted their temperament to protect and care for the child sometimes even at the cost of their own well-being. Empathetic traits would have been selected for by the much higher survival rates in offspring. By creating a pair-bond the chances for survival are significantly increased. Nature is continuing to be overcome by human advances but historically she has been a harsh mistress. This pair-bond can also be found in various other species, some for life, some only for a season.

        Strategy number two is the "sneaky male", this is also common in many other species. If a male can propagate without the responsibility of child-rearing, it's like winning the evolutionary multi-state lottery. Women are typically very guarded against the sneaky male because of the high cost. It doesn't succeed often, but often enough that it remains viable. Men are hyper alert for this strategy because it has such great evolutionary rewards.

        Strategy number three is forced impregnation. Enough said.

        Inside every human male these three strategies exist. Not because they are moral, not because they are desirable, only because in the past they have been successful enough to be passed down from generation to generation. They should not be ignored, only through understanding them all can the less desirable be avoided.

        It should be obvious that strategy number one deserves to be promoted and the other two discouraged. Socialized males who strive for the best within themselves pursue this ideal. When looking for a candidate for a long term pair-bond, the attributes of beauty, grace, and overall attractiveness are selected for. In the video, two questions are raised for males. First, can you picture in your head a female that is beautiful, but not hot? Second, the opposite, can you picture a female that is hot but not beautiful? Most males can do this. A common belief is that hotness is the peak of beauty, but this is not true. True beauty is way more sublime.

        Egalitarian males searching for fulfillment through the first strategy look for beauty foremost in women. However, only those who have managed a high degree of self-discipline can completely ignore hot. Hot triggers strategy number two. Watch the video if the full ramifications of that are not overwhelmingly obvious. Females actively displaying hot are going to attract the attention of males hoping to win the lottery. This is not a conscious choice, it's simply what evolution has left us with.

        Porn triggers number two, and can also trigger number three. An abundance of porn is equivalent to an abundance of males constantly being triggered to try strategy number two.

        Females also have corresponding strategies for reproduction. What social norms should we aspire to such that strategy number one is maximized?
        I disagree with this. You say porn triggers your strategy nos. 2 and 3. To my mind, porn more plausibly is an antidote to strategy no. 2 (marital infidelity). That porn increases rapes (your strategy no. 3) was a common belief in the 1970s that has been rejected by science. The most straight-forward explanation is that the best prophylactic against porn or strategy no. 2 is a sexually satisfying monogomous relationship (your strategy no. 1). But widespread availability of porn provides a cost free alternative to the release sought by strategy no. 2, usually or often a high risk, high cost proposition.

        I think this is what the LDS Church most fears—that porn is so cheaply and easily accessible. The LDS Church wants to control every detail of your sex life. So the LDS Church sees porn as a natural rival in much the same way that the Soviet Union regarded religion as a natural rival.

        Your essay is loaded with stereotypes about men and women and sex. But what about recent studies showing that women who attain financial independence are straying in increasing numbers, approaching male rates. Likewise, it’s not just men consuming porn. Women do it a lot too. Indeed, psychologist Esther Perel, who recently wrote a well received book about marital infidelity, has said that women may be less satisfied with monogomy than men, since they more often turn away from sex in a monogomous relationship—which then leads to porn or strategy no. 2. As you note, humans are more complicated than flowers.

        Probably the best argument that porn is harmful focuses on the harm caused to the female actors. But many feminists would say that this is just another form of patriarchy and misogyny—men foreclosing a lucrative means for women to support themselves. Of course there are a lot of women who lament their work as porn stars, but likewise people who work in McDonald’s. Mostly they don’t.
        When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

        --Jonathan Swift

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
          I disagree with this. You say porn triggers your strategy nos. 2 and 3. To my mind, porn more plausibly is an antidote to strategy no. 2 (marital infidelity). That porn increases rapes (your strategy no. 3) was a common belief in the 1970s that has been rejected by science. The most straight-forward explanation is that the best prophylactic against porn or strategy no. 2 is a sexually satisfying monogomous relationship (your strategy no. 1). But widespread availability of porn provides a cost free alternative to the release sought by strategy no. 2, usually or often a high risk, high cost proposition.

          I think this is what the LDS Church most fears—that porn is so cheaply and easily accessible. The LDS Church wants to control every detail of your sex life. So the LDS Church sees porn as a natural rival in much the same way that the Soviet Union regarded religion as a natural rival.

          Your essay is loaded with stereotypes about men and women and sex. But what about recent studies showing that women who attain financial independence are straying in increasing numbers, approaching male rates. Likewise, it’s not just men consuming porn. Women do it a lot too. Indeed, psychologist Esther Perel, who recently wrote a well received book about marital infidelity, has said that women may be less satisfied with monogomy than men, since they more often turn away from sex in a monogomous relationship—which then leads to porn or strategy no. 2. As you note, humans are more complicated than flowers.

          Probably the best argument that porn is harmful focuses on the harm caused to the female actors. But many feminists would say that this is just another form of patriarchy and misogyny—men foreclosing a lucrative means for women to support themselves. Of course there are a lot of women who lament their work as porn stars, but likewise people who work in McDonald’s. Mostly they don’t.
          You are woefully ill-informed on this subject. A good place to begin to understand the impact of readily accessible porn is to actually listen to experts on the subject who are also women. The following video is frank, honest and direct and possibly NSFW, but important. It comes from Southbank Centre WOW (Women Of The World) festival 2014:

          Last edited by tooblue; 09-11-2018, 05:38 AM.

          Comment


          • Ultimate punishment for looking at porn right here

            Originally posted by tooblue View Post
            You are woefully ill-informed on this subject.
            No quote better surmises message boards in general, or CUF/CS specifically than this. This could be used in nearly every thread on this board.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Art Vandelay View Post
              No quote better surmises message boards in general, or CUF/CS specifically than this. This could be used in nearly every thread on this board.
              I don’t have 46 minutes to listen to that video, but I don’t purport to speak for all women, unlike some here.
              When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

              --Jonathan Swift

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                I don’t have 46 minutes to listen to that video, but I don’t purport to speak for all women, unlike some here.
                Really? But you do purport to speak for 'science', all church leaders, all church members, all women as represented through a psychologist, many feminists, most female porn stars, and so forth. Besides, why bother to watch a video to inform yourself when you can just post a bunch of crap and then move on?
                PLesa excuse the tpyos.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                  I disagree with this. You say porn triggers your strategy nos. 2 and 3. To my mind, porn more plausibly is an antidote to strategy no. 2 (marital infidelity). That porn increases rapes (your strategy no. 3) was a common belief in the 1970s that has been rejected by science. The most straight-forward explanation is that the best prophylactic against porn or strategy no. 2 is a sexually satisfying monogomous relationship (your strategy no. 1). But widespread availability of porn provides a cost free alternative to the release sought by strategy no. 2, usually or often a high risk, high cost proposition.

                  I think this is what the LDS Church most fears—that porn is so cheaply and easily accessible. The LDS Church wants to control every detail of your sex life. So the LDS Church sees porn as a natural rival in much the same way that the Soviet Union regarded religion as a natural rival.

                  Your essay is loaded with stereotypes about men and women and sex. But what about recent studies showing that women who attain financial independence are straying in increasing numbers, approaching male rates. Likewise, it’s not just men consuming porn. Women do it a lot too. Indeed, psychologist Esther Perel, who recently wrote a well received book about marital infidelity, has said that women may be less satisfied with monogomy than men, since they more often turn away from sex in a monogomous relationship—which then leads to porn or strategy no. 2. As you note, humans are more complicated than flowers.

                  Probably the best argument that porn is harmful focuses on the harm caused to the female actors. But many feminists would say that this is just another form of patriarchy and misogyny—men foreclosing a lucrative means for women to support themselves. Of course there are a lot of women who lament their work as porn stars, but likewise people who work in McDonald’s. Mostly they don’t.
                  It's not my argument, so I will not defend it (maybe can not, I don't have the background), I'll let the original authors, here's one extracted segment from the linked video (just 3 minutes of the nearly 3 hours). I just summarized what I learned from the video--it's not my essay. I do find their argument compelling. Significantly more compelling than the argument that porn is an antidote to strategy number 2. There is more detail in the full video,

                  Last edited by swampfrog; 09-11-2018, 10:43 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                    I don’t have 46 minutes to listen to that video, but I don’t purport to speak for all women, unlike some here.
                    Of course you don't, you're a man and you've got more important things to do. We get that about you.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                      Probably the best argument that porn is harmful focuses on the harm caused to the female actors. But many feminists would say that this is just another form of patriarchy and misogyny—men foreclosing a lucrative means for women to support themselves. Of course there are a lot of women who lament their work as porn stars, but likewise people who work in McDonald’s. Mostly they don’t.
                      This part cracked me up. Porn is not harmful to women because they are willing to do it for money!

                      An argument similar to this is often employed to defend polygamy at Colorado City.
                      "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                      "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                      "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                        This part cracked me up. Porn is not harmful to women because they are willing to do it for money!

                        An argument similar to this is often employed to defend polygamy at Colorado City.
                        Also I dont know I would describe it as lucrative for women. That's like saying black people shouldn't complain about opportunity because playing professional basketball is very lucrative. A tiny fraction of porn performers will make a good living. Most get used up and thrown away.

                        Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Omaha 680 View Post
                          Also I dont know I would describe it as lucrative for women. That's like saying black people shouldn't complain about opportunity because playing professional basketball is very lucrative. A tiny fraction of porn performers will make a good living. Most get used up and thrown away.

                          Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
                          So guys like you and Bishop Lebowski should tell them they can’t do it.
                          When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                          --Jonathan Swift

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                            So guys like you and Bishop Lebowski should tell them they can’t do it.
                            Omg that's exactly what we were saying!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by swampfrog View Post
                              Someday I'm going to write up my thoughts in a more formal essay (most likely with a theme of modesty) on what I've understood from these two and a few other resources. Just to get it out of my head in a single place. The following is summarized from the video.
                              That day finally arrived.

                              https://whatidontknowscaresme.blogsp...d-modesty.html

                              I'm interested in any feedback, though this was mostly an exercise in trying to organize myself, which I often do through writing.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by swampfrog View Post
                                That day finally arrived.

                                https://whatidontknowscaresme.blogsp...d-modesty.html

                                I'm interested in any feedback, though this was mostly an exercise in trying to organize myself, which I often do through writing.
                                Interesting read. I like the way you ended with the thought providing question.

                                Comment

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