The Official Thread for Runners

[ERCougar]

OK - so maybe this is a dumb question with an obvious answer that I should just know. But I don't.

My approach has always been to get faster by running faster, longer, etc. Obviously the longer runs are a little slower than the shorter runs - but just run as fast as you can while still feeling good and maintaining a general pace.

In looking at training schedules intended to prepare a person for for longer races, it seems like they are always talking about going slower than race pace on long runs. So the thought occurs to me - if you are always running slow, how in the world are you supposed to get fast?


So - what is the benefit of running a slower pace than you anticipate racing at? Help me understand why I should run at a 8:30 or 9 minute pace if I can do 8?

The concern is injury. Your race pace is going to happen after a few weeks of tapering, and will take you a few days to recover from. It's not a pace youre capable of incorporating into your regular ttraining without some recovery time. More beneficial to run long and slow, where you just focus on acclimating your body to the cumulative stress and leave the speedwork to shorter runs.

Of course, piney (and his wife) is way faster than I am, so take that for what its worth.

[Pheidippides]

I'm officially going to jump on the barefoot wagon after this next marathon. My wife is getting me a pair of VFF Bikilas for Xmas. I've been going more midfoot with my striking lately and I am hopeful this will make my form even better. Obviously I am going to take things slow (a mile at most the first time out) but I will return and report.

[bluegoose]

This is a good question. Most of the books and articles on the subject of marathon training suggest going 45-60 secs slower than marathon pace for long runs. But getting a good answer as to why is harder to come by. As ER mentioned, some recommend it for injury prevention. Others say to do it to help train the aerobic system by keeping intensity well below lactate levels. Others recommend slower pacing just to keep you on your feet longer without putting in too many miles working up to 26.2.

Hal Higdons website just says something like, "Go slower on your long runs. You'll just have to trust me on this one."

One of my buddies has a problem with this approach as well. He has done 3:25 marathons a couple of times and has followed the traditional method. This year he is trying something different and is doing his long runs at a negative split, with the second half of the run faster than marathon pace. He is also going to try to do more than the three 20 milers that he has done in the past. His reasoning is "How can you possibly expect your body to go at a pace you've rarely run, for a distance that you haven't run without training to do so?" Its hard logic to argue with. We'll see if he can do it this year without injuries.

[Pheidippides]

This is a good question. Most of the books and articles on the subject of marathon training suggest going 45-60 secs slower than marathon pace for long runs. But getting a good answer as to why is harder to come by. As ER mentioned, some recommend it for injury prevention. Others say to do it to help train the aerobic system by keeping intensity well below lactate levels. Others recommend slower pacing just to keep you on your feet longer without putting in too many miles working up to 26.2.

Hal Higdons website just says something like, "Go slower on your long runs. You'll just have to trust me on this one."

One of my buddies has a problem with this approach as well. He has done 3:25 marathons a couple of times and has followed the traditional method. This year he is trying something different and is doing his long runs at a negative split, with the second half of the run faster than marathon pace. He is also going to try to do more than the three 20 milers that he has done in the past. His reasoning is "How can you possibly expect your body to go at a pace you've rarely run, for a distance that you haven't run without training to do so?" Its hard logic to argue with. We'll see if he can do it this year without injuries.

I have to say as a counterpoint, though, that I ran my long runs for my first marathon very fast - maybe 30 seconds or faster off of race pace - on the theory your friend had. I ran 2 20 milers too. Result: disaster and the wall.

My second marathon I ran at a pace that was a full minute or more slower than hoped pace. And I only managed one 20. Result: no wall and a sub 4 finish.

How much of that is just about my overall shape getting better? I don't know.

[bluegoose]

I have to say as a counterpoint, though, that I ran my long runs for my first marathon very fast - maybe 30 seconds or faster off of race pace - on the theory your friend had. I ran 2 20 milers too. Result: disaster and the wall.

My second marathon I ran at a pace that was a full minute or more slower than hoped pace. And I only managed one 20. Result: no wall and a sub 4 finish.

How much of that is just about my overall shape getting better? I don't know.

As a counterpoint to your counterpoint, my first marathon I only got one 20 miler (closer to 19 miles), at a pace at least a full minute slower than pace. I hit the wall in spectacular fashion that year.

Last year I got three 20 milers in at about 30-45 seconds off marathon pace and did much better. No real wall, and about 40 minutes faster than the previous year.

My conclusion is similar to yours. I think we were both just untrained rookies our first year that had a far too ambitious finishing time for a first marathon.

[Pheidippides]

As a counterpoint to your counterpoint, my first marathon I only got one 20 miler (closer to 19 miles), at a pace at least a full minute slower than pace. I hit the wall in spectacular fashion that year.

Last year I got three 20 milers in at about 30-45 seconds off marathon pace and did much better. No real wall, and about 40 minutes faster than the previous year.

My conclusion is similar to yours. I think we were both just untrained rookies our first year that had a far too ambitious finishing time for a first marathon.

Yeah, that's my conclusion. I view untrained rookies as new parents: full of hope, piss and vinegar but short on experience and wisdom.

(I say this while training for what is only my third).

[OhioBlue]

OK - so maybe this is a dumb question with an obvious answer that I should just know. But I don't.

My approach has always been to get faster by running faster, longer, etc. Obviously the longer runs are a little slower than the shorter runs - but just run as fast as you can while still feeling good and maintaining a general pace.

In looking at training schedules intended to prepare a person for for longer races, it seems like they are always talking about going slower than race pace on long runs. So the thought occurs to me - if you are always running slow, how in the world are you supposed to get fast?


So - what is the benefit of running a slower pace than you anticipate racing at? Help me understand why I should run at a 8:30 or 9 minute pace if I can do 8?

As others have said, it basically is about not asking the body to do more than it can handle. Running a long, slow run may not help push your anaerobic threshold but it does help your body develop endurance by strengthening connective tissue and building strength where it is needed. Other runs (eg tempo) can be the ones where you get closer to race pace.

I guess a few people are able to just go out and run fast, but by far most runners I know run into the same human limitations and have to figure out how to train in a smart way.

If you want an example of what happens when you get too excited and push too hard, look no further than me. I've been careful with the mileage increase rule, been careful with interspersing easier runs, etc. And I still ended up hurt--I've been out two weeks with a hip flexor strain and after running a couple test miles this morning, I'm guessing it's gonna be at least another week.

Why? My best guess is that I got over-enamored with my goal of a 19:59 5k and bit off more than I could chew. Looking back at my log, the pain started in the two weeks where I trained the hardest I had to that point. (I think the chief culprit was speedwork that was too ambitious). The result is an overuse injury that I can recover from and learn from, but that is disappointing to say the least.

So if you're one of the lucky few and can just push it and get away with it, more power to you. I'm jealous. But if you're more human than machine you may want to keep your ambitions in check while your body catches up.

[ERCougar]

As others have said, it basically is about not asking the body to do more than it can handle. Running a long, slow run may not help push your anaerobic threshold but it does help your body develop endurance by strengthening connective tissue and building strength where it is needed. Other runs (eg tempo) can be the ones where you get closer to race pace.

I guess a few people are able to just go out and run fast, but by far most runners I know run into the same human limitations and have to figure out how to train in a smart way.

If you want an example of what happens when you get too excited and push too hard, look no further than me. I've been careful with the mileage increase rule, been careful with interspersing easier runs, etc. And I still ended up hurt--I've been out two weeks with a hip flexor strain and after running a couple test miles this morning, I'm guessing it's gonna be at least another week.

Why? My best guess is that I got over-enamored with my goal of a 19:59 5k and bit off more than I could chew. Looking back at my log, the pain started in the two weeks where I trained the hardest I had to that point. (I think the chief culprit was speedwork that was too ambitious). The result is an overuse injury that I can recover from and learn from, but that is disappointing to say the least.

So if you're one of the lucky few and can just push it and get away with it, more power to you. I'm jealous. But if you're more human than machine you may want to keep your ambitions in check while your body catches up.

Yup. There are a few runners who can get away with breaking rules, but unless you're sure you're one of them, trust the schedule. Nothing sucks worse than having to ditch your schedule because of an injury. Sorry to hear that, Ohio. Remember to keep yourself healthy so you can return to the homeland for the Cedar Half--it's a great race!

The other thing about long and slow is that I think it's good for perspective. We're all doing this at least partially for fun, and it's good to forget about pace once a week and just enjoy running. At least for me, anyway.

[ERCougar]

Also...
Why is it that we runners only get a stinkin thread while the cyclists get their own forum? I demand equality!

[Pheidippides]

Yup. There are a few runners who can get away with breaking rules, but unless you're sure you're one of them, trust the schedule. Nothing sucks worse than having to ditch your schedule because of an injury. Sorry to hear that, Ohio. Remember to keep yourself healthy so you can return to the homeland for the Cedar Half--it's a great race!

The other thing about long and slow is that I think it's good for perspective. We're all doing this for, and it's good to forget about pace once a week and just enjoy running. At least for me, anyway.

I am exhibit A in this. Last year I got caught up in beating bluegoose in the mileage competition. Trouble was that I'd only been running a few months and he'd been running for some time. I set myself back with injuries.

I'm determined not to let that happen again with my VFF, so I am going to break them in with a couch to 5k program.

[OhioBlue]

Yup. There are a few runners who can get away with breaking rules, but unless you're sure you're one of them, trust the schedule. Nothing sucks worse than having to ditch your schedule because of an injury. Sorry to hear that, Ohio. Remember to keep yourself healthy so you can return to the homeland for the Cedar Half--it's a great race!

The other thing about long and slow is that I think it's good for perspective. We're all doing this at least partially for fun, and it's good to forget about pace once a week and just enjoy running. At least for me, anyway.

Totally with you on the enjoyment of a long, slower run. I can't say that running itself is often 'fun' for me, but on those LSD runs it gets there, and I have stretches where I'm just groovin'.

The hip thing sucks but I'm trying to stay patient. I think my body is also telling me "hey this is what happens when you try to start running at age 35!" I'm realizing my knees/ITB/tendons are probably bearing more than they should due to muscular weaknesses in my core, glutes, abductors/adductors, etc. I've been working in some appropriate strength training to hopefully help, nothing too aggressive but just to address the underlying weaknesses. In the meantime I'm dying for something else to do besides lifting upper body, core workouts, and table tennis.

You'll have to remind me about the Cedar half as it gets closer, I'll definitely think about it.

[happyone]

I guess I am also an example of this - as some of you know I mainly walk/run to control my blood sugar. When I was first starting I would press too hard and end up with knee and hip problems (my weight probably had something to do with it also) Now I keep the jogs to 3, 4 times a week and just walk the off days. It seems to have worked

I really admire you marathoners

The only problem I had is if there is a way to roll your ankle I will find it! I rolled it today on an uneven sidewalk

[ERCougar]

You'll have to remind me about the Cedar half as it gets closer, I'll definitely think about it.

Will do. You've got a place to stay if you do it. It's a super-fast race and I think it'll get more popular as people figure that out. Plus--it's Cedar Canyon.

In the meantime, I've got a table. Right now, Mrs. Solon is 4-1 against me, but maybe by the time I can beat her, I can give you a game.

[Pheidippides]

I guess I am also an example of this - as some of you know I mainly walk/run to control my blood sugar. When I was first starting I would press too hard and end up with knee and hip problems (my weight probably had something to do with it also) Now I keep the jogs to 3, 4 times a week and just walk the off days. It seems to have worked

I really admire you marathoners

The only problem I had is if there is a way to roll your ankle I will find it! I rolled it today on an uneven sidewalk

I hear you! I am a pro at rolling my ankle as well. I was starting out on a 15 miler for my last marathon when, at mile 2, I took a shortcut across some grass and stepped in a gopher hole. I did the smart thing and called my wife to pick me up, unlike the previous time when I tried to gut it out and ended up taking a week off.

[Moliere]

I am exhibit A in this. Last year I got caught up in beating bluegoose in the mileage competition. Trouble was that I'd only been running a few months and he'd been running for some time. I set myself back with injuries.

I'm determined not to let that happen again with my VFF, so I am going to break them in with a couch to 5k program.

I've experienced this in the past as well. I've tried to starting running several times and I always push it too hard. I've suffered stress factures, shin splints, incredible soreness, etc. This time I consciously held back. Sometimes I finished a 2 mile run and felt like I could do more but I stopped myself. So far so good on being injury free but I'm only 3.5 months into running.

And as OhioBlue said, the runs that I really enjoy are the ones that I tone it down and do 9:30 splits. At that pace I can run forever (or 5.3 miles right now) and when I stop I feel absolutely refreshed. It's my speed days that I dread.