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  1. #61
    1 Coach McGuirk's Avatar
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    I know a lot of you lowlanders don't believe in altitude difference, but I experience the effects. For example, I am in Dallas right now and this morning ran my fastest 5k at 25:12 and ran my 10k in 52:36 and I didn't push at all. This is just not possible for me to do when training at 5k ft. But everytime I head to sea level, my stamina increases dramatically. Maybe it is just a one way effect? Or effects some over others but the difference is there.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk View Post
    I know a lot of you lowlanders don't believe in altitude difference, but I experience the effects. For example, I am in Dallas right now and this morning ran my fastest 5k at 25:12 and ran my 10k in 52:36 and I didn't push at all. This is just not possible for me to do when training at 5k ft. But everytime I head to sea level, my stamina increases dramatically. Maybe it is just a one way effect? Or effects some over others but the difference is there.
    The only person who questions this is niku. I run faster in st george than cedar, and that's only a few thousand feet difference (and hotter).
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    Hey, you Utah runners, I need some help. I have to squeeze in a 20 miler while I'm there and need some help figuring out a route. I'm okay going one way and taking a bus back or having my wife pick me up. I will be staying within a mile of the Cabelas in Lehi.
    I'm not a Utah runner, but some sites have different routes. Here's a couple (they aren't 20 miles but they aren't too short that you can't run them twice and get bored):

    http://www.endomondo.com/routes/3105522

    http://nikerunning.nike.com/nikeos/p...ail/410473517/

    http://www.mapmyrun.com/run/united-s...lehi/118830839 Jordan River seems to have a trail by it as well, just look out for bodies.

    Or you could just find a track and run 80 laps
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    Hey, you Utah runners, I need some help. I have to squeeze in a 20 miler while I'm there and need some help figuring out a route. I'm okay going one way and taking a bus back or having my wife pick me up. I will be staying within a mile of the Cabelas in Lehi.
    I'm guessing you've checked out gc and mapmyrun? it seems like you could find a good canyon or lake trail.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Jones View Post
    I'm not a Utah runner, but some sites have different routes. Here's a couple (they aren't 20 miles but they aren't too short that you can't run them twice and get bored):

    http://www.endomondo.com/routes/3105522

    http://nikerunning.nike.com/nikeos/p...ail/410473517/

    http://www.mapmyrun.com/run/united-s...lehi/118830839 Jordan River seems to have a trail by it as well, just look out for bodies.

    Or you could just find a track and run 80 laps
    The jordan river parkway is a great trail. Does it go all the way to lehi?
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  6. #66
    lollygagger hostile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    Hey, you Utah runners, I need some help. I have to squeeze in a 20 miler while I'm there and need some help figuring out a route. I'm okay going one way and taking a bus back or having my wife pick me up. I will be staying within a mile of the Cabelas in Lehi.
    My wife usually runs from our place at the mouth of Parley's canyon to the mouth of little cottonwood canyon and back and ends up around 20 miles.

    In Lehi, if you'r OK doing some hills you could run over Traverse Mountain and up towards the canyons and back
    "You interns are like swallows. You shit all over my patients for six weeks and then fly off."

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    The only person who questions this is niku. I run faster in st george than cedar, and that's only a few thousand feet difference (and hotter).
    Let's be clear: I don't feel the effects in reverse. Or, rather, the effect of going up 6000 feet in elevation (actual figures) is more than counterbalanced by also going from 95 degrees and 90 percent humidity to 50 degrees and 10 percent humidity (also actual figures). So I suggest Coach try the same thing in July or August.

    I absolutely believe in altitude effects, all else being equal.

    Did you mean to say a few hundred instead of a few thousand?
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I'm guessing you've checked out gc and mapmyrun? it seems like you could find a good canyon or lake trail.
    Plan to check them out, but nothing beats actual feet on the pavement. I wanted to see if there are any running meccas in SLC.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    Let's be clear: I don't feel the effects in reverse. Or, rather, the effect of going up 6000 feet in elevation (actual figures) is more than counterbalanced by also going from 95 degrees and 90 percent humidity to 50 degrees and 10 percent humidity (also actual figures). So I suggest Coach try the same thing in July or August.

    I absolutely believe in altitude effects, all else being equal.

    Did you mean to say a few hundred instead of a few thousand?
    I'm just messing with you-i figured you knew that altitude makes a difference.

    I will dispute your numbers though...I've never run in 50 degrees in july. If we compare real temps, i'd say that the combo of hills and altitude is about a wash for the temp difference.

    yeah-st george is a few thousand feet lower than cedar.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I'm guessing you've checked out gc and mapmyrun? it seems like you could find a good canyon or lake trail.
    What's gc?
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I'm just messing with you-i figured you knew that altitude makes a difference.

    I will dispute your numbers though...I've never run in 50 degrees in july. If we compare real temps, i'd say that the combo of hills and altitude is about a wash for the temp difference.

    yeah-st george is a few thousand feet lower than cedar.
    the numbers are legit, but you are correct in that it wasn't July. It was September. It was actually colder than 50 degrees when we started, with cowboy as my witness.

    I didn't realize it was that much of a drop from cedar to st. george, but I looked it up. 3000 feet per wikipedia. I didn't know Cedar was that high.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Jones View Post
    What's gc?
    garminconnect. Which brings us to your next purchase--a Forerunner.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    the numbers are legit, but you are correct in that it wasn't July. It was September. It was actually colder than 50 degrees when we started, with cowboy as my witness.

    I didn't realize it was that much of a drop from cedar to st. george, but I looked it up. 3000 feet per wikipedia. I didn't know Cedar was that high.
    It's 3 am and the ER's slow so I played around with a calculator I like:
    http://www.runworks.com/calculator.html
    On a 1 hour 10K, it looks like you can cut about a minute for every 2-3000 feet of altitude loss. I don't know what the average hill profile of a SLC runner would be (I'm sure it depends on where you are), but mine is about 250 feet up and 250 feet down for my regular 6 mile run. If I flattened that out, it takes about 1:30 off. So SLC hilly (4300 ft) to sea level flat is about 3 minutes off a 1 hour 10K. That's the same as about a 25-30 degree temperature difference.

    Here's a comparison of the average highs of SLC and Houston:
    http://outflux.net/weather/noaa/index.php?cities[]=HOUSTON,TX&cities[]=SALT_LAKE_CITY,UT&compare[]=2&sa=Compare+Cities!&cx=partner-pub-0271172053863578:3880711149&ie=UTF-8&q=%22HOUSTON,+TX%22+%22SALT+LAKE+CITY,+UT%22+&co f=GALT:%230066CC;GL:1;DIV:%23999999;VLC:336633;AH: center;BGC:FFFFFF;LBGC:FF9900;ALC:0066CC;LC:0066CC ;T:000000;GFNT:666666;GIMP:666666;FORID:9

    If the average July afternoon high in Houston is 94, and the afternoon humidity is 90% (can't do 95), that calculates to a heat index of 137+ (http://www.weatherimages.org/data/heatindex.html). SLC's afternoon high July heat index looks to be around 105, so afternoon July runs in Houston or SLC are about a wash. And really stupid.

    The difference is in the mornings. Average SLC low in July is about 10 degrees cooler than in Houston, so it looks like a Houston run would be slower in the morning.

    The other difference would be June and September, where SLC cools off 5-10 degrees more than Houston does.

    Moral of the story: don't live in Houston.
    Last edited by ERCougar; 12-10-2010 at 05:17 AM.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    It's 3 am and the ER's slow so I played around with a calculator I like:
    http://www.runworks.com/calculator.html
    On a 1 hour 10K, it looks like you can cut about a minute for every 2-3000 feet of altitude loss. I don't know what the average hill profile of a SLC runner would be (I'm sure it depends on where you are), but mine is about 250 feet up and 250 feet down for my regular 6 mile run. If I flattened that out, it takes about 1:30 off. So SLC hilly (4300 ft) to sea level flat is about 3 minutes off a 1 hour 10K. That's the same as about a 25-30 degree temperature difference.

    Here's a comparison of the average highs of SLC and Houston:
    http://outflux.net/weather/noaa/index.php?cities[]=HOUSTON,TX&cities[]=SALT_LAKE_CITY,UT&compare[]=2&sa=Compare+Cities!&cx=partner-pub-0271172053863578:3880711149&ie=UTF-8&q=%22HOUSTON,+TX%22+%22SALT+LAKE+CITY,+UT%22+&co f=GALT:%230066CC;GL:1;DIV:%23999999;VLC:336633;AH: center;BGC:FFFFFF;LBGC:FF9900;ALC:0066CC;LC:0066CC ;T:000000;GFNT:666666;GIMP:666666;FORID:9

    If the average July afternoon high in Houston is 94, and the afternoon humidity is 90% (can't do 95), that calculates to a heat index of 137+ (http://www.weatherimages.org/data/heatindex.html). SLC's afternoon high July heat index looks to be around 105, so afternoon July runs in Houston or SLC are about a wash. And really stupid.

    The difference is in the mornings. Average SLC low in July is about 10 degrees cooler than in Houston, so it looks like a Houston run would be slower in the morning.

    The other difference would be June and September, where SLC cools off 5-10 degrees more than Houston does.

    Moral of the story: don't live in Houston.
    You've hit the real key: nobody runs in the day here in Houston during the summer. Heck, only a few of us crazies run in the summer here at all! It's early am or late evening or nothing.

    Here's some real-world stats for you. I present the following runs for your consideration.

    My marathon in Logan in September (starting temp 31, ending temp low 70s): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/49537466

    The 20 miler I did for that run (started at 64 and 87%, ended at 77 and 83%): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/46475236

    A disastrous 12 miler from earlier that training cycle (started at 78 and 93%, ended at 84 and 80%): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/43898046

    A 19 miler in Montana this summer (started at 40ish, ended at 50 ish, humidity was in the low 20s at most - and be sure to check the elevation profile): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/41620032

    A run done at my parent's place (consistently around 55 and 20, first few miles done with my brother so they are slower): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/36750641

    Worst run of my life (accidentally paused my watch so it's in two chunks - started at 81 and 93, ended at 96 and 54 when I called my wife to come pick me up before I died): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/45316930, http://connect.garmin.com/activity/45316925

    18 miler from a couple of weeks ago (started at 61 and 95, ended at 75 and 60): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/57671657

    I'm not sure I know what this all means except that I felt very best on the marathon, second best on the Montana 19 miler.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    garminconnect. Which brings us to your next purchase--a Forerunner.
    My 305 is a couple thousand miles old and still clicking along strong. But the 410 looks nice too (if pricey!).
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

  16. #76

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    nikuman, what's the distinction between "Avg Pace" and "Avg Moving Pace" in the timing section of Garmin Connect?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    garminconnect. Which brings us to your next purchase--a Forerunner.
    I've seen these and have wondered if they are better than my iPhone. I know the Garmin has a heartrate monitor, which would be nice but is it worth the price for that alone. I'm assuming that the GPS in the iPhone is decent enough, at least it works for me right now.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottie View Post
    nikuman, what's the distinction between "Avg Pace" and "Avg Moving Pace" in the timing section of Garmin Connect?
    Avg moving pace removes the time I spend at stoplights and such.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Jones View Post
    I've seen these and have wondered if they are better than my iPhone. I know the Garmin has a heartrate monitor, which would be nice but is it worth the price for that alone. I'm assuming that the GPS in the iPhone is decent enough, at least it works for me right now.
    The gps in the iPhone is about .03 mile per mile off as compared to my garmin.

    If I could only choose one (I run with both) it would be the garmin hands down. More precise and much better data, even ignoring the hr monitor.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by hostile View Post
    My wife usually runs from our place at the mouth of Parley's canyon to the mouth of little cottonwood canyon and back and ends up around 20 miles.

    In Lehi, if you'r OK doing some hills you could run over Traverse Mountain and up towards the canyons and back
    The Jordan River Parkway Trail can be picked up over by the Thanksgiving Pointe golf course. It's a nice trail and you can follow it from there all the way to Utah Lake.

    I am pretty sure that if you picked it up at the golf course, and went to Utah Lake and back, you would be fairly close to 20 miles round trip.
    "Newton's First Law of Motion: ...things at rest tend to stay at rest. Things in motion, tend to stay in motion...."

    Hmm... Good motivation for me to remain active I guess.

  21. #81
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    I know this is too far north, but the Legacy Parkway has a running/bike trial that runs from Farmington to Bountiful running along side it. When the birds are here it can be a nice run

    I may be small, but I'm slow.

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  22. #82

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    i'm sure there's a thread for this somewhere, but in the spirit of all things runnings, i'll ask here. i'm looking to get my fat butt into a pair of good starter running shoes. i have very wide feet, high arches, and tend to run with moderate to severe overpronation. because of this, i'm likely looking for something with cushioned with some motion/stability control.

    shoes i've looked at:

    brooks adrenaline gts 11
    nike air pegasus 27
    brooks glycerin 8
    lunar glide

    i'll likely go with brooks so i can get the right width. has anybody worn any of these?

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by camleish View Post
    i'm sure there's a thread for this somewhere, but in the spirit of all things runnings, i'll ask here. i'm looking to get my fat butt into a pair of good starter running shoes. i have very wide feet, high arches, and tend to run with moderate to severe overpronation. because of this, i'm likely looking for something with cushioned with some motion/stability control.

    shoes i've looked at:

    brooks adrenaline gts 11
    nike air pegasus 27
    brooks glycerin 8
    lunar glide

    i'll likely go with brooks so i can get the right width. has anybody worn any of these?
    Honestly, the best thing you can do is go to a specialty running store in your area and get fitted. It is more expensive but worth it the first time. Different people react differently to different brands. I can't stand Brooks, for example, but that does not mean that they make bad shoes. Just don't work well with me. And I love Saucony and Asics, but I know plenty of good runners that hate those brands.

    Most of us agree that Nike shoes, on the whole, aren't the best (I own some lunar glides, and while they are fine for shorter distances, they feel "flat" after about six miles).
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

  24. #84
    1 Coach McGuirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    Honestly, the best thing you can do is go to a specialty running store in your area and get fitted. It is more expensive but worth it the first time. Different people react differently to different brands. I can't stand Brooks, for example, but that does not mean that they make bad shoes. Just don't work well with me. And I love Saucony and Asics, but I know plenty of good runners that hate those brands.

    Most of us agree that Nike shoes, on the whole, aren't the best (I own some lunar glides, and while they are fine for shorter distances, they feel "flat" after about six miles).
    This.

    I have used Nike(no thanks), mizuno alchemy(misdiagnosed as a strong over pronater. I constantly tripped on the outside sole), asics cumulus 12's and Brooks ghost 3s. I currently alternate between a pair of ghosts and cumulus as I equally love both pairs.

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    coach, do you have any recommendations for local shops?

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    Quote Originally Posted by camleish View Post
    coach, do you have any recommendations for local shops?
    Runners corner (state and 800 south in Orem) or 26.2 (bulldog and state in the Macy's big lots parking lot at the bottom of the hill that drops you into Provo on state). Both are good, although I prefer the staff and selection at RC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk View Post
    This.

    I have used Nike(no thanks), mizuno alchemy(misdiagnosed as a strong over pronater. I constantly tripped on the outside sole), asics cumulus 12's and Brooks ghost 3s. I currently alternate between a pair of ghosts and cumulus as I equally love both pairs.
    I have heard good things about the ghosts.

    I just retired a pair of Saucony Ride 2s. My other pair are Asics Gel Landreths, which are okay, although I do prefer the lunar glides for short distances.

    And I'm getting a pair of VFFs for Xmas, as I said before.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

  28. #88

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    I was able to get out for almost 14 miles this morning. I felt really good for about 13 of them leading up to the least 1/2 mile hill that took me back to my car. Overall pace was just under 8:30 per mile, and I was fairly consistent throughout. So I was feeling pretty good about today.

    One side note, at some point during my run I was listening to a "This American Life" podcast on Poultry (don't knock it til you try it). As they were discussing the phenomenon of chickens having all of their feathers plucked off during a tornado, in the background was playing a nice upbeat polka song. Never have I had a song carry me along and put a skip in my step quite like that one did. If anyone happens to know the name of the tune, I would appreciate hearing about it so I can add it to my playlist. And, no, it wasn't the chicken dance song.

    Thanks in advance.

  29. #89
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    Default I hate treadmills

    A couple weeks ago I ran on a treadmill for the first time in over 6 years. I've never liked treadmills and now I hate them. After doing 3 miles on the treadmill I noticed my ankle was bleeding. I was so constantly worried about hitting the edge of the running surface that I ran way too much toward the middle, meaning that my right shoe kept hitting my left ankle. The result was a bleeding sore on my left ankle.

    Ever since that treadmill my left ankle hurts whenever I knick it while running (which happens maybe 4 or 5 times on a run). So last night it happened 4 or 5 times. When I got into my house I noticed the damage that was done. Looks like I might need to bandage it up before I go running next time until it fully heals.

    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  30. #90
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    Quick-hit running musings of the day:

    - I love running at night during the holidays. Great Christmas lights in my area.

    - Signed up for the 2011 NYC marathon lottery today. Also planning on doing the same for St George. Hopefully I don't draw for both.

    - On my twenty miler on Saturday, I ran out of water at mile 12 and was worried until I found an unopened bottle of spring water - a full liter - sitting in the road. Nice. Still lost 10 pounds on that run though.

    - I need to lose another 20 pounds to be really fast. New years resolution!

    - saturday the built in undies in my shorts started chafing at mile 10. By the end I had blood. Time to retire those shorts.

    - I take back what I said about Nike shoes. I actually like my lunar glides enough to get another pair.

    - being sick didn't sap me of too much speed. Last night did 4.40 miles. Last 5k in just over 23 mins. Last half mile in 3:15. Happy with that speed

    - latest balls-to-the-wall songs: Madhouse (anthrax), Fear of the Dark (Iron Maiden) and Free Bird (lynyrd skynyrd).
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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