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  • #61
    I know a lot of you lowlanders don't believe in altitude difference, but I experience the effects. For example, I am in Dallas right now and this morning ran my fastest 5k at 25:12 and ran my 10k in 52:36 and I didn't push at all. This is just not possible for me to do when training at 5k ft. But everytime I head to sea level, my stamina increases dramatically. Maybe it is just a one way effect? Or effects some over others but the difference is there.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Coach McGuirk View Post
      I know a lot of you lowlanders don't believe in altitude difference, but I experience the effects. For example, I am in Dallas right now and this morning ran my fastest 5k at 25:12 and ran my 10k in 52:36 and I didn't push at all. This is just not possible for me to do when training at 5k ft. But everytime I head to sea level, my stamina increases dramatically. Maybe it is just a one way effect? Or effects some over others but the difference is there.
      The only person who questions this is niku. I run faster in st george than cedar, and that's only a few thousand feet difference (and hotter).
      At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
      -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by nikuman View Post
        Hey, you Utah runners, I need some help. I have to squeeze in a 20 miler while I'm there and need some help figuring out a route. I'm okay going one way and taking a bus back or having my wife pick me up. I will be staying within a mile of the Cabelas in Lehi.
        I'm not a Utah runner, but some sites have different routes. Here's a couple (they aren't 20 miles but they aren't too short that you can't run them twice and get bored):

        http://www.endomondo.com/routes/3105522

        http://nikerunning.nike.com/nikeos/p...ail/410473517/

        http://www.mapmyrun.com/run/united-s...lehi/118830839 Jordan River seems to have a trail by it as well, just look out for bodies.

        Or you could just find a track and run 80 laps
        "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by nikuman View Post
          Hey, you Utah runners, I need some help. I have to squeeze in a 20 miler while I'm there and need some help figuring out a route. I'm okay going one way and taking a bus back or having my wife pick me up. I will be staying within a mile of the Cabelas in Lehi.
          I'm guessing you've checked out gc and mapmyrun? it seems like you could find a good canyon or lake trail.
          At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
          -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Eddie Jones View Post
            I'm not a Utah runner, but some sites have different routes. Here's a couple (they aren't 20 miles but they aren't too short that you can't run them twice and get bored):

            http://www.endomondo.com/routes/3105522

            http://nikerunning.nike.com/nikeos/p...ail/410473517/

            http://www.mapmyrun.com/run/united-s...lehi/118830839 Jordan River seems to have a trail by it as well, just look out for bodies.

            Or you could just find a track and run 80 laps
            The jordan river parkway is a great trail. Does it go all the way to lehi?
            At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
            -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by nikuman View Post
              Hey, you Utah runners, I need some help. I have to squeeze in a 20 miler while I'm there and need some help figuring out a route. I'm okay going one way and taking a bus back or having my wife pick me up. I will be staying within a mile of the Cabelas in Lehi.
              My wife usually runs from our place at the mouth of Parley's canyon to the mouth of little cottonwood canyon and back and ends up around 20 miles.

              In Lehi, if you'r OK doing some hills you could run over Traverse Mountain and up towards the canyons and back
              "You interns are like swallows. You shit all over my patients for six weeks and then fly off."

              "Don't be sorry, it's not your fault. It's my fault for overestimating your competence."

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                The only person who questions this is niku. I run faster in st george than cedar, and that's only a few thousand feet difference (and hotter).
                Let's be clear: I don't feel the effects in reverse. Or, rather, the effect of going up 6000 feet in elevation (actual figures) is more than counterbalanced by also going from 95 degrees and 90 percent humidity to 50 degrees and 10 percent humidity (also actual figures). So I suggest Coach try the same thing in July or August.

                I absolutely believe in altitude effects, all else being equal.

                Did you mean to say a few hundred instead of a few thousand?
                Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                  I'm guessing you've checked out gc and mapmyrun? it seems like you could find a good canyon or lake trail.
                  Plan to check them out, but nothing beats actual feet on the pavement. I wanted to see if there are any running meccas in SLC.
                  Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by nikuman View Post
                    Let's be clear: I don't feel the effects in reverse. Or, rather, the effect of going up 6000 feet in elevation (actual figures) is more than counterbalanced by also going from 95 degrees and 90 percent humidity to 50 degrees and 10 percent humidity (also actual figures). So I suggest Coach try the same thing in July or August.

                    I absolutely believe in altitude effects, all else being equal.

                    Did you mean to say a few hundred instead of a few thousand?
                    I'm just messing with you-i figured you knew that altitude makes a difference.

                    I will dispute your numbers though...I've never run in 50 degrees in july. If we compare real temps, i'd say that the combo of hills and altitude is about a wash for the temp difference.

                    yeah-st george is a few thousand feet lower than cedar.
                    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                      I'm guessing you've checked out gc and mapmyrun? it seems like you could find a good canyon or lake trail.
                      What's gc?
                      "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                        I'm just messing with you-i figured you knew that altitude makes a difference.

                        I will dispute your numbers though...I've never run in 50 degrees in july. If we compare real temps, i'd say that the combo of hills and altitude is about a wash for the temp difference.

                        yeah-st george is a few thousand feet lower than cedar.
                        the numbers are legit, but you are correct in that it wasn't July. It was September. It was actually colder than 50 degrees when we started, with cowboy as my witness.

                        I didn't realize it was that much of a drop from cedar to st. george, but I looked it up. 3000 feet per wikipedia. I didn't know Cedar was that high.
                        Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Eddie Jones View Post
                          What's gc?
                          garminconnect. Which brings us to your next purchase--a Forerunner.
                          At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                          -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by nikuman View Post
                            the numbers are legit, but you are correct in that it wasn't July. It was September. It was actually colder than 50 degrees when we started, with cowboy as my witness.

                            I didn't realize it was that much of a drop from cedar to st. george, but I looked it up. 3000 feet per wikipedia. I didn't know Cedar was that high.
                            It's 3 am and the ER's slow so I played around with a calculator I like:
                            http://www.runworks.com/calculator.html
                            On a 1 hour 10K, it looks like you can cut about a minute for every 2-3000 feet of altitude loss. I don't know what the average hill profile of a SLC runner would be (I'm sure it depends on where you are), but mine is about 250 feet up and 250 feet down for my regular 6 mile run. If I flattened that out, it takes about 1:30 off. So SLC hilly (4300 ft) to sea level flat is about 3 minutes off a 1 hour 10K. That's the same as about a 25-30 degree temperature difference.

                            Here's a comparison of the average highs of SLC and Houston:
                            http://outflux.net/weather/noaa/index.php?cities[]=HOUSTON,TX&cities[]=SALT_LAKE_CITY,UT&compare[]=2&sa=Compare+Cities!&cx=partner-pub-0271172053863578:3880711149&ie=UTF-8&q=%22HOUSTON,+TX%22+%22SALT+LAKE+CITY,+UT%22+&co f=GALT:%230066CC;GL:1;DIV:%23999999;VLC:336633;AH: center;BGC:FFFFFF;LBGC:FF9900;ALC:0066CC;LC:0066CC ;T:000000;GFNT:666666;GIMP:666666;FORID:9

                            If the average July afternoon high in Houston is 94, and the afternoon humidity is 90% (can't do 95), that calculates to a heat index of 137+ (http://www.weatherimages.org/data/heatindex.html). SLC's afternoon high July heat index looks to be around 105, so afternoon July runs in Houston or SLC are about a wash. And really stupid.

                            The difference is in the mornings. Average SLC low in July is about 10 degrees cooler than in Houston, so it looks like a Houston run would be slower in the morning.

                            The other difference would be June and September, where SLC cools off 5-10 degrees more than Houston does.

                            Moral of the story: don't live in Houston.
                            Last edited by ERCougar; 12-10-2010, 04:17 AM.
                            At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                            -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                              It's 3 am and the ER's slow so I played around with a calculator I like:
                              http://www.runworks.com/calculator.html
                              On a 1 hour 10K, it looks like you can cut about a minute for every 2-3000 feet of altitude loss. I don't know what the average hill profile of a SLC runner would be (I'm sure it depends on where you are), but mine is about 250 feet up and 250 feet down for my regular 6 mile run. If I flattened that out, it takes about 1:30 off. So SLC hilly (4300 ft) to sea level flat is about 3 minutes off a 1 hour 10K. That's the same as about a 25-30 degree temperature difference.

                              Here's a comparison of the average highs of SLC and Houston:
                              http://outflux.net/weather/noaa/index.php?cities[]=HOUSTON,TX&cities[]=SALT_LAKE_CITY,UT&compare[]=2&sa=Compare+Cities!&cx=partner-pub-0271172053863578:3880711149&ie=UTF-8&q=%22HOUSTON,+TX%22+%22SALT+LAKE+CITY,+UT%22+&co f=GALT:%230066CC;GL:1;DIV:%23999999;VLC:336633;AH: center;BGC:FFFFFF;LBGC:FF9900;ALC:0066CC;LC:0066CC ;T:000000;GFNT:666666;GIMP:666666;FORID:9

                              If the average July afternoon high in Houston is 94, and the afternoon humidity is 90% (can't do 95), that calculates to a heat index of 137+ (http://www.weatherimages.org/data/heatindex.html). SLC's afternoon high July heat index looks to be around 105, so afternoon July runs in Houston or SLC are about a wash. And really stupid.

                              The difference is in the mornings. Average SLC low in July is about 10 degrees cooler than in Houston, so it looks like a Houston run would be slower in the morning.

                              The other difference would be June and September, where SLC cools off 5-10 degrees more than Houston does.

                              Moral of the story: don't live in Houston.
                              You've hit the real key: nobody runs in the day here in Houston during the summer. Heck, only a few of us crazies run in the summer here at all! It's early am or late evening or nothing.

                              Here's some real-world stats for you. I present the following runs for your consideration.

                              My marathon in Logan in September (starting temp 31, ending temp low 70s): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/49537466

                              The 20 miler I did for that run (started at 64 and 87%, ended at 77 and 83%): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/46475236

                              A disastrous 12 miler from earlier that training cycle (started at 78 and 93%, ended at 84 and 80%): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/43898046

                              A 19 miler in Montana this summer (started at 40ish, ended at 50 ish, humidity was in the low 20s at most - and be sure to check the elevation profile): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/41620032

                              A run done at my parent's place (consistently around 55 and 20, first few miles done with my brother so they are slower): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/36750641

                              Worst run of my life (accidentally paused my watch so it's in two chunks - started at 81 and 93, ended at 96 and 54 when I called my wife to come pick me up before I died): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/45316930, http://connect.garmin.com/activity/45316925

                              18 miler from a couple of weeks ago (started at 61 and 95, ended at 75 and 60): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/57671657

                              I'm not sure I know what this all means except that I felt very best on the marathon, second best on the Montana 19 miler.
                              Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                                garminconnect. Which brings us to your next purchase--a Forerunner.
                                My 305 is a couple thousand miles old and still clicking along strong. But the 410 looks nice too (if pricey!).
                                Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

                                Comment

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