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Thread: Immigration & Prop 8 from an Apostle

  1. #61
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    I just think it isn't fair to pick on the gays and give the illegals a pass. After all...neither of them had a choice right?
    Pick on the gays? What's the connection here? Do you mean by expecting gay members to live the law of the land, but not illegals?

    Do you mean the church expecting members with same-sex attraction to live the law of chastity, but not illegals?

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    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    Pick on the gays? What's the connection here? Do you mean by expecting gay members to live the law of the land, but not illegals?

    Do you mean the church expecting members with same-sex attraction to live the law of chastity, but not illegals?
    FTR...I am not getting pissy. You just come off as an authority on lots of things.

    I find it curious that the Church is willing to turn a blind eye towards one group of people, while focusing much time and effort against another.

    Also...I consider someone being here illegally a moral issue also.

    If someone is knowingly breaking the law...you would have to question their morals.

    But I am in the camp that gays are born that way, not a choice.

    So...if we shouldn't punish a child born to an illegal, then in my thinking we don't really have a right to punish a gay person for how they were born either.

    The Church is telling gay folks to go ahead and be gay, just don't expect to be married or be recognized as a member of the Church if you are a practicing gay. "Get your sexual orientation squared away and you are good to go."

    The Church should extend the same favor to illegals. You can come to Church if you are illegal, you just can't participate. "Get your Citizenship squared and you are good to go."

  3. #63
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    The Church is telling gay folks to go ahead and be gay, just don't expect to be married or be recognized as a member of the Church if you are a practicing gay. "Get your sexual orientation squared away and you are good to go."
    So if you possess any inborn proclivities you should be allowed to act upon those without ecclesiastical repercussions?

    Gay members are allowed full participation (including priesthood and temple ordinances) as long as they live the law of chastity. Just like straight members.

    Hopfrog seems to have openly reconciled himself with that requirement without malice towards the church (even if he may not have always felt that way in the past).

  4. #64
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Don't roll your eyes at me!


    Of course not. The Church can say, "If you want to serve a mission for the Church, then we'll call you to your home country, so we can be on the right side of the law."

    No one's forcing them to serve a mission. I want them to have an easier time being here legally. But, if they're not, and until that day comes, and they are going to go around representing the Church, I think that their immigration status should be documented.

    El Garrapatas is right.
    So the child has to atone for the sin of their parents?

  5. #65
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    So if you possess any inborn proclivities you should be allowed to act upon those without ecclesiastical repercussions?

    Gay members are allowed full participation (including priesthood and temple ordinances) as long as they live the law of chastity. Just like straight members.

    Hopfrog seems to have openly reconciled himself with that requirement without malice towards the church (even if he may not have always felt that way in the past).
    Round and round we go....

    You are recognizing that they are gay. You are telling them two things:

    1. Live your life celebate and have full membership.

    2. Try and fight through a hetero marraige and hope it doesn't fail.

    Neither of those sound like a "Plan of Happiness" to me.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    Gay members are allowed full participation (including priesthood and temple ordinances) as long as they live the law of chastity. Just like straight members
    How ludicrous is it to tell someone to live the law of chastity and then not allow them to marry?

  7. #67
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    You are recognizing that they are gay. You are telling them two things:

    1. Live your life celebate and have full membership.

    2. Try and fight through a hetero marraige and hope it doesn't fail.

    Neither of those sound like a "Plan of Happiness" to me.

    So it's impossible to be happy under #1? My aunt never was married and lived a fulfilling, happy life for 65 years. She definitely would have like to have had her own spouse and children, but it didn't work out for her. However, that made her closer to her extended family than likely would have been otherwise. She was the aunt I was closest to and spent the most time with.

    Ideal situation? Hardly. Was she consigned to a life of misery and woe? No. Will the Plan of Happiness be any less happy for her in her remaining ((Infinity - 65) / Infinity)% of existence? No.

  8. #68
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    So it's impossible to be happy under #1? My aunt never was married and lived a fulfilling, happy life for 65 years. She definitely would have like to have had her own spouse and children, but it didn't work out for her. However, that made her closer to her extended family than likely would have been otherwise. She was the aunt I was closest to and spent the most time with.

    Ideal situation? Hardly. Was she consigned to a life of misery and woe? No. Will the Plan of Happiness be any less happy for her in her remaining ((Infinity - 65) / Infinity)% of existence? No.
    It isn't impossible...as you have pointed out.

    It is unfair in the demand though as NS has pointed out.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    So it's impossible to be happy under #1? My aunt never was married and lived a fulfilling, happy life for 65 years. She definitely would have like to have had her own spouse and children, but it didn't work out for her. However, that made her closer to her extended family than likely would have been otherwise. She was the aunt I was closest to and spent the most time with.

    Ideal situation? Hardly. Was she consigned to a life of misery and woe? No. Will the Plan of Happiness be any less happy for her in her remaining ((Infinity - 65) / Infinity)% of existence? No.
    Just curious, have you ever considered that your Aunt might be gay?
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    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
    Just curious, have you ever considered that your Aunt might be gay?
    Right now, she's dead.

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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
    Just curious, have you ever considered that your Aunt might be gay?
    If she was, it only further proves his point.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  12. #72
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    If she was, it only further proves his point.
    Well, she lived in the Bay Area with another single female LDS member. They did have separate bedrooms.

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    Golf & Cubs Disrespecter beelzebabette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    My aunt never was married and lived a fulfilling, happy life for 65 years. She definitely would have like to have had her own spouse and children, but it didn't work out for her.
    I'm not intending to be snide or whiny, but hearing about how fulfilling a life of abstinence should be from someone who isn't contemplating that prospect has a semi-hollow ring to it.

  14. #74
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beelzebabette View Post
    I'm not intending to be snide or whiny, but hearing about how fulfilling a life of abstinence should be from someone who isn't contemplating that prospect has a semi-hollow ring to it.
    Well I guess she could have lied to us about it, but she repeatedly and openly discussed her situation and how she had found happiness despite not being married.

    I guess I should have tried to call her bluff.
    Last edited by Indy Coug; 08-27-2010 at 02:32 PM.

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    Golf & Cubs Disrespecter beelzebabette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    Well I guess should could have lied to us about it, but she repeatedly and openly discussed her situation and how she had found happiness despite not being married.

    I guess I should have tried to call her bluff.
    Yes, that's where I was going with that. Should have gone with my first instinct to delete before submitting.

  16. #76
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    I am glad to meet the final arbiter on what is right and wrong for the Church.

    You are busy.

    I am sure that you already know this...with your magic 8-ball and all...but I think the Church does more right than wrong.

    I just think it isn't fair to pick on the gays and give the illegals a pass. After all...neither of them had a choice right?
    In my opinion, the tenor and tone of most of your posts don't indicate you think that. Perhaps you do, but more than one person doesn't perceive that you do. Obviously everyone has some type of axe to grind with the Church, myself included, and I understand that this forum provides an outlet for that grinding; however, you do seem to grind a bit harder and more frequently than the average poster on this board.

    You may or may not care how other people perceive you. I'm just pointing out that it's not only possible but also rational for others to perceive from the tone and tenor and frequency of your complaints that you are antipathetic to the church.

  17. #77
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    In my opinion, the tenor and tone of most of your posts don't indicate you think that. Perhaps you do, but more than one person doesn't perceive that you do. Obviously everyone has some type of axe to grind with the Church, myself included, and I understand that this forum provides an outlet for that grinding; however, you do seem to grind a bit harder and more frequently than the average poster on this board.

    You may or may not care how other people perceive you. I'm just pointing out that it's not only possible but also rational for others to perceive from the tone and tenor and frequency of your complaints that you are antipathetic to the church.
    I don't doubt that.

    And it is more than likely because I consider this a safe place to vent.

    There are folks on this site that fall into a few catagories:

    Hard Liners
    Apologists
    Believers
    Doubters
    Non-believers
    Anti

    This is twice that you have taken umbrage to something that I have said. The first time wasn't as nice or as soft as this one. I appreciate the tone of this one better.

    I wouldn't say that I am antipathetic, because I don't "loath" the Church. I believe it does more good overall than harm. I just believe that we gloss over the harm and only focus on the good.

    I would place myself in the doubter camp. There are things I believe and things I don't believe. But I choose to believe that there is a place for people like me in the Church. Some folks don't believe that I should belong because I question/doubt. That is cool.

    If my Bishop called me tonight and asked me to help him/a ward member out I would drop my plans and do it because I respect him in his calling and it is the Christian thing to do.

    But if he called me and asked me to do something that goes against my own personal moral code, then I would tell him no. Which I have done on occasion.

  18. #78

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    I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with Indy. The Church is a global church and not the enforcement arm of the U.S. government. If its real aim is to save souls, then it shouldn't care whether a citizen is documented or not. If the Church feels like being undocumented is morally wrong, then I could understand them requiring someone to be documented before allowing them to serve missions. But you can't simply say that because someone is undocumented, they are acting immorally. I'm glad the Church has chosen not to get involved politically in this issue and would be a lot more disappointed if they had taken a stand based on the current political climate.
    Last edited by Non Sequitur; 08-27-2010 at 03:49 PM.

  19. #79
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with Indy. The Church is a global church and not the enforcement arm of the U.S. government. If its real aim is to save souls, then it shouldn't care whether a citizen is documented or not. If the Church feels like being undocumented is a morally wrong, then I could understand them requiring someone to be documented before allowing them to serve missions. But you can't simply say that because someone is undocumented, they are acting immorally. I'm glad the Church has chosen not to get involved politically in this issue and would be a lot more disappointed if they took a stand based on the political climate.
    Ditto.
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    Even if you are the biggest stickler for the whole "law of the land" deal, many many many illegals qualify to be here through relief mandated by congress. So. Unless you are an effing omniscient immigration mastermind, which none of us are, you don't know who is "immoral" and who isn't even by the most stringent standard. The Church's position on this is very wise, the way I see it.

  21. #81
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Ditto.
    Tritto!
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    Tritto!
    Quarto.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


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    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  23. #83
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    are all you ditto heads agreeing with the conent or wiht the odd position of agreeing with Indy?
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  24. #84
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    are all you ditto heads agreeing with the conent or wiht the odd position of agreeing with Indy?
    That question is too complex for me to answer.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  25. #85
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    So the child has to atone for the sin of their parents?
    Judas priest!

    Ok, envision a situation wherein your parents told you it was okay to drink beer. On your 21st birthday, you invite your YSA group out to celebrate, and they tell you that it's against the Word of Wisdom.

    You can:

    1. GO drink anyway
    2. Not drink

    If you choose number 1, that's on you. If you know you're here illegally, as an adult, the onus is on you to get your immigration status in order. Your parents can't help you unless they are citizens.

    The Church doesn't have to send them home. But, it can say, if you want to be an ordained minister, you have to be in compliance with the law of the land.

    Believe me, I want immigration reform. But, until then, I think it's absolutely ridiculous how the Church picks and chooses which laws it wants to respect regarding immigration.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Judas priest!

    Ok, envision a situation wherein your parents told you it was okay to drink beer. On your 21st birthday, you invite your YSA group out to celebrate, and they tell you that it's against the Word of Wisdom.

    You can:

    1. GO drink anyway
    2. Not drink

    If you choose number 1, that's on you. If you know you're here illegally, as an adult, the onus is on you to get your immigration status in order. Your parents can't help you unless they are citizens.

    The Church doesn't have to send them home. But, it can say, if you want to be an ordained minister, you have to be in compliance with the law of the land.

    Believe me, I want immigration reform. But, until then, I think it's absolutely ridiculous how the Church picks and chooses which laws it wants to respect regarding immigration.
    Would you oppose doctors providing emergency treatment to an illegal immigrant?
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  27. #87
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Would you oppose doctors providing emergency treatment to an illegal immigrant?
    I wouldn't. Because that is life threatening stuff.

  28. #88
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Would you oppose doctors providing emergency treatment to an illegal immigrant?
    Absolutely not. This isn't about the law. I think that the issue at hand is whether or not someone who is an undocumented alien can represent the Church ethically while not obeying the law of the land, knowingly.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  29. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Absolutely not. This isn't about the law. I think that the issue at hand is whether or not someone who is an undocumented alien can represent the Church ethically while not obeying the law of the land, knowingly.
    When I was a missionary in Ecuador, one of our biggest challenges was getting people married to their partners before we baptized them. In Ecuador it's nearly impossible to get married unless you have a cedula -- a national ID card. To expedite marriages we frequently paid off a certain lawyer with connections who could get people married without all the requisite paper work. We clearly circumvented the law, but if we had not done so many people would not have been baptized. Obeying the law of the land is generally a good idea, but sometimes it's a secondary concern.

  30. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    When I was a missionary in Ecuador, one of our biggest challenges was getting people married to their partners before we baptized them. In Ecuador it's nearly impossible to get married unless you have a cedula -- a national ID card. To expedite marriages we frequently paid off a certain lawyer with connections who could get people married without all the requisite paper work. We clearly circumvented the law, but if we had not done so many people would not have been baptized. Obeying the law of the land is generally a good idea, but sometimes it's a secondary concern.
    This is true. Bribery is cultural in many third world contries. They consider it an unofficial, mandatory commission.

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