Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 208

Thread: Immigration & Prop 8 from an Apostle

  1. #31
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    28,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    My dislike for those that abuse immigration is well documented on here.

    The fact that the Church call people that are in the country illegally on missions is bothersome.

    They are breaking the law.

    I almost didn't get to go because I messed around with girls. My Stake President made me wait 3 months after my first interview with him because my "relationship" with my youngest brother wasn't in accordance to the gospel. (We didn't like each other and fist fought frequently.)

    So I had to patch shit up with him and wait 3 months for my 2nd interview.

    Then...the Church wasn't going to let me serve a mission because I was too fat.

    So illegals getting to serve is bullshit.
    Tick, I actually agree with you about calling undocumented aliens on missions. To me, that's lending an air of legitimacy to what they're doing while claiming to uphold the law of the land.

    As to the Church not allowing fat people to serve, I would've left the Church over that insult. According to current charts that I saw when I was an Exec Sec, I would've been 35 pounds over the "limit."

    I got pissed off in Bishopric meeting and had to excuse myself. There were guys in my mission who had done any and everything with a girl other than getting one pregnant, and they got to serve, but I caught crap because I was fat.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  2. #32
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5,506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    Well, the stuff you just pointed out from your experience were spiritual issues, not legal ones. If you had pointed out illegal stuff you had done, you would have made a better case for your argument.

    So just exactly how anal do you want the church to be about being law-abiding? If they clamp down on legal status, what else should they start looking at that they've been conveniently ignoring for awhile?
    You don't have to be anal to make sure you aren't breaking the law.

    To be the YM President I had to take a BS Boy Scout "don't be a kid toucher" class to meet the legal requirement.

    I had to verify that I had enough auto insurance as to be "legal" when doing scout shit.

    The Church does the legal circle jerk when it is going to benefit or protect them.

    I understand that there should be a blind eye placed when it comes to baptism numbers and church membership.

    Totally understandable.

  3. #33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    Well, the stuff you just pointed out from your experience were spiritual issues, not legal ones. If you had pointed out illegal stuff you had done, you would have made a better case for your argument.

    So just exactly how anal do you want the church to be about being law-abiding? If they clamp down on legal status, what else should they start looking at that they've been conveniently ignoring for awhile?
    A close friend was not allowed to serve as a result of a felony resulting from blowing up mailboxes. It was later expunged, but the first presidency thought that was reason to keep him from going.

    I did not serve a mission because, even though the "process of repentance" (whatever the hell that means) had been completed, the first presidency still would have had to review my papers. I didn't think that was any of their business. Calling illegals to serve when a good portion of the church's membership doesn't think they have a right to receive emergency care at a u.s. hospital is baffling

  4. #34
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Living Large inside the 5th Circle
    Posts
    18,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by camleish View Post
    Calling illegals to serve when a good portion of the church's membership doesn't think they have a right to receive emergency care at a u.s. hospital is baffling
    You seem to be equating the the leadership with the members at large, so even if your characterization of the membership at large is accurate, you still are talking about a different group of people.

  5. #35
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Living Large inside the 5th Circle
    Posts
    18,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    To be the YM President I had to take a BS Boy Scout "don't be a kid toucher" class to meet the legal requirement.

    I had to verify that I had enough auto insurance as to be "legal" when doing scout shit.
    Are those church standards, or the Boy Scouts of America standards?

  6. #36
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5,506

    Default

    Both.

    Church required that I comply with BS regs.

    If not...I couldn't drive for a campout. (No skin off of my nose) But when you have no involved parents...you have to comply.

    Resistance is Futile.

  7. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    You seem to be equating the the leadership with the members at large, so even if your characterization of the membership at large is accurate, you still are talking about a different group of people.
    do you honestly believe the first presidency would continue calling undocumented residents on missions if there was a mass outcry against it?

    and i was more indicting the opinions of the church outside of the Q12. if you asked a member that supported deporting illegal aliens why we sponsor and send them on missions, what do you think they would say?

  8. #38
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    28,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    Are those church standards, or the Boy Scouts of America standards?
    Since the Church called him to be the Scoutmaster, sanctioning the program, then the'yre both.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  9. #39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    Both.

    Church required that I comply with BS regs.

    If not...I couldn't drive for a campout. (No skin off of my nose) But when you have no involved parents...you have to comply.

    Resistance is Futile.
    Does breaking the speed limit, which is against the law, preclude you from church callings? Serving a mission?
    "I don't mind giving the church 10% of my earnings, but 50% of my weekend mornings? Not as long as DirecTV NFL Sunday Ticket is around." - Daniel Tosh

  10. #40
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Living Large inside the 5th Circle
    Posts
    18,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Since the Church called him to be the Scoutmaster, sanctioning the program, then the'yre both.
    LOL. If the Church wants to be able to charter their own troop units, they have to comply with the BSA regs in order to be recognized by the BSA.

    I guaran-fricken-tee you the Church isn't the one keeping the paperwork on molestation training or car insurance.

  11. #41
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5,506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
    Does breaking the speed limit, which is against the law, preclude you from church callings? Serving a mission?
    No.

    Speed limits are regulated by states. Immigration (which isn't happening) is regulated Federally.

    And I understand what you are attempting to say, but it is apples and oranges. Not the same but still produce.

  12. #42
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The Creek
    Posts
    21,270

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    LOL. If the Church wants to be able to charter their own troop units, they have to comply with the BSA regs in order to be recognized by the BSA.

    I guaran-fricken-tee you the Church isn't the one keeping the paperwork on molestation training or car insurance.
    This is correct and I would even revise the statement slightly. In order to be chartered as a BSA unit the designated leaders must complete the training. In order to qualify for the BSA excess policy of insurance the autos used must have qualifying primary policies and they are not allowed on BSA functions if they don't. IOW, it is not a matter of the church chartering their own units, it is a matter of the Church chartering a BSA unit.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  13. #43

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    No.

    Speed limits are regulated by states. Immigration (which isn't happening) is regulated Federally.

    And I understand what you are attempting to say, but it is apples and oranges. Not the same but still produce.
    Does it really matter if it is federal or state law? If we believe in obeying all the laws of the land, that includes state laws as well as federal, no?

    How many of this young men and woman who are here illegally and serving a mission do you think came across by themselves or as adults? I imagine that a vast majority of them were children coming in to the country with their parents. Do you honestly believe that they should be punished and not allowed to serve a mission because of the actions of their parents?
    "I don't mind giving the church 10% of my earnings, but 50% of my weekend mornings? Not as long as DirecTV NFL Sunday Ticket is around." - Daniel Tosh

  14. #44
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Living Large inside the 5th Circle
    Posts
    18,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
    How many of this young men and woman who are here illegally and serving a mission do you think came across by themselves or as adults? I imagine that a vast majority of them were children coming in to the country with their parents. Do you honestly believe that they should be punished and not allowed to serve a mission because of the actions of their parents?
    Stupid 2nd Article of Faith

  15. #45
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5,506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
    Does it really matter if it is federal or state law? If we believe in obeying all the laws of the land, that includes state laws as well as federal, no?

    How many of this young men and woman who are here illegally and serving a mission do you think came across by themselves or as adults? I imagine that a vast majority of them were children coming in to the country with their parents. Do you honestly believe that they should be punished and not allowed to serve a mission because of the actions of their parents?
    If I attempted to go on a mission right now I would be disqualified. I am 6'2" 360 lbs.

    My dads side of the family averages 6'6" 300 lbs. Even if I was at the family average I still couldn't serve.

    Sucks that the church is picking on my when my hands are tied by genetics.

    I would be interested to have someone post the height/weight limits again for missionaries.

    And I am cool for the Church not giving recommends for those that speed. I don't do it. You can ask DT and my wife. They both hate going places with me because of it.

  16. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Tick, I actually agree with you about calling undocumented aliens on missions. To me, that's lending an air of legitimacy to what they're doing while claiming to uphold the law of the land.

    As to the Church not allowing fat people to serve, I would've left the Church over that insult. According to current charts that I saw when I was an Exec Sec, I would've been 35 pounds over the "limit."

    I got pissed off in Bishopric meeting and had to excuse myself. There were guys in my mission who had done any and everything with a girl other than getting one pregnant, and they got to serve, but I caught crap because I was fat.
    I thought that the fat missionary ban was for insurance/healthcare cost purposes?

    Either way, I think that a wise bishop should have a "special" scale to weigh exceptionally worthy but overweight young male missionary candidates.

  17. #47
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5,506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    Stupid 2nd Article of Faith
    Stupid 12th Article of Faith.

    We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    But I guess there is a difference between sustaining and obeying.

    So I am going to sustain the Word of Wisdom from here on out.

  18. #48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    Stupid 12th Article of Faith.

    We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    But I guess there is a difference between sustaining and obeying.

    So I am going to sustain the Word of Wisdom from here on out.
    Interesting the current definition of sustain in Websters:

    to give support or relief to
    2: to supply with sustenance : nourish
    3: keep up, prolong
    4: to support the weight of : prop; also : to carry or withstand (a weight or pressure)
    5: to buoy up <sustained by hope>
    6a : to bear up under b : suffer, undergo <sustained heavy losses>
    7a : to support as true, legal, or just b : to allow or admit as valid <the court sustained the motion>
    8: to support by adequate proof : confirm <testimony that sustains our contention>
    #3 is quite interesting in Ticks context: could "sustaining the law" simply mean to prolong the constitution until a date when it is no longer needed?

  19. #49
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Living Large inside the 5th Circle
    Posts
    18,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    Stupid 12th Article of Faith.

    We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    But I guess there is a difference between sustaining and obeying.

    So I am going to sustain the Word of Wisdom from here on out.
    So how does this work?

    Holding it against a 19 to 21 year old that their parents took them to the US illegally (violating the 2nd article) in order to uphold the 12th article?

  20. #50
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    28,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    So how does this work?

    Holding it against a 19 to 21 year old that their parents took them to the US illegally (violating the 2nd article) in order to uphold the 12th article?
    Said 19 to 21-year-old is now an adult, and the Church could call them to serve in their home country. No?
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  21. #51
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The Creek
    Posts
    21,270

    Default

    Someone here illegally broke the law by entering without permission. Why is their agreement to be directed by the church to go somewhere else for 2 years illegal? It has nothing to do with their illegal status. I don't see the problem. The church didn't tell them to come here illegally. Thus it is neither breaking a law nor failing to sustain a law. What am I missing?

    I suppose you could argue it is a crime of moral turpitude, but only if the potenitla nmissionary willfully entered illegally (as oppsed to followed his parents) and even then I am not sure I see it in the same category as blowing up mailboxes.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  22. #52
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Living Large inside the 5th Circle
    Posts
    18,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Said 19 to 21-year-old is now an adult, and the Church could call them to serve in their home country. No?
    So it's now the church's job to deport members?

  23. #53
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    46,984

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Someone here illegally broke the law by entering without permission. Why is their agreement to be directed by the church to go somewhere else for 2 years illegal? It has nothing to do with their illegal status. I don't see the problem. The church didn't tell them to come here illegally. Thus it is neither breaking a law nor failing to sustain a law. What am I missing?

    I suppose you could argue it is a crime of moral turpitude, but only if the potenitla nmissionary willfully entered illegally (as oppsed to followed his parents) and even then I am not sure I see it in the same category as blowing up mailboxes.
    By golly creekster, they are criminals! Next thing you know we will be letting sinners go on missions.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  24. #54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    Stupid 12th Article of Faith.

    We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    But I guess there is a difference between sustaining and obeying.

    So I am going to sustain the Word of Wisdom from here on out.
    But is that really block and white? Does it apply to the laws of all lands? Just the US? How did that work out in Nazi Germany?

    BTW, I seem to remember a story about you speeding...
    "I don't mind giving the church 10% of my earnings, but 50% of my weekend mornings? Not as long as DirecTV NFL Sunday Ticket is around." - Daniel Tosh

  25. #55
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5,506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
    But is that really block and white? Does it apply to the laws of all lands? Just the US? How did that work out in Nazi Germany?

    BTW, I seem to remember a story about you speeding...
    You can have my temple recommend. I don't use it anyways.

  26. #56
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5,506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    So it's now the church's job to deport members?
    There was an article posted on here within the last 18 months where there was an illegal missionary serving somewhere in the midwest.

    The Mission President and the Church recommended that a family member go pick him up when his mission was over. The Church didn't want him to go to the airport because they knew he was undocumented and they didn't want the chance of him being deported.

    That is in fact from the article.

    I understand that this isn't an easy black and white issue.

    I am the first to admit that the Church has it faults and twists the view so things work in their favor.

    I just can't wrap my mind around some folks that think the Church can/does no wrong.

    And this is why I will never find myself in a position of leadership. I don't care enough.

  27. #57
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Living Large inside the 5th Circle
    Posts
    18,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    I just can't wrap my mind around some folks that think the Church can/does no wrong.

    And this is why I will never find myself in a position of leadership. I don't care enough.
    The church does wrong, just not as often as you appear to think -- and this thread is one example of that.

  28. #58
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5,506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    The church does wrong, just not as often as you appear to think -- and this thread is one example of that.
    I am glad to meet the final arbiter on what is right and wrong for the Church.

    You are busy.

    I am sure that you already know this...with your magic 8-ball and all...but I think the Church does more right than wrong.

    I just think it isn't fair to pick on the gays and give the illegals a pass. After all...neither of them had a choice right?

  29. #59
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    28,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    So it's now the church's job to deport members?
    Don't roll your eyes at me!


    Of course not. The Church can say, "If you want to serve a mission for the Church, then we'll call you to your home country, so we can be on the right side of the law."

    No one's forcing them to serve a mission. I want them to have an easier time being here legally. But, if they're not, and until that day comes, and they are going to go around representing the Church, I think that their immigration status should be documented.

    El Garrapatas is right.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  30. #60
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Living Large inside the 5th Circle
    Posts
    18,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    I am glad to meet the final arbiter on what is right and wrong for the Church.
    Don't get pissy with me just because you came up with a bunch of bad arguments in this thread.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •