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Thread: Immigration & Prop 8 from an Apostle

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    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Immigration & Prop 8 from an Apostle

    A couple of Sundays ago we had Stake Conference. We were getting a new Stake Presidency, so we had an Apostle present - Quentin L. Cook. During the Priesthood Leadership session he took the last half of the meeting and openned it up for questions. He accompanied by the Ogden Mission President and a 70 who's name I never could figure out how to spell - and had them help answer some of the questions.

    I was impressed when a couple of men had the guts to ask about immigration and Prop 8. And I wanted to share Elder Cook's response. He indicated that he shares responsibility for Public Relations - so I'm going to assume that he would have been involved when some of this went down and would know what he's talking about.

    First - Immigration. An attorney asked about the church's position on this. Elder Cook basically said "The church has been about as clear as they can be" when it comes to immigration. He reiterated that the church has not taken a position on what should be done with the borders or what the process should be to gain citizenship. Simply that these decisions effect a lot of people - discussion should be held with civility and decisions made keeping in mind the need to be caring and thoughtful of others.

    He also reiterated that the church has always taken the position that missionaries will teach the gospel to whoever wants to hear it wherever they may be. They may live in the area, be on vacation, and may be documented or not.

    The Ogden mission president told a story of getting a call from a concerned citizen that the missionaries were about to baptize someone who was in the country illegally. His response to them was that the two missionaries who were going to baptize the family were also here illegally, so it was OK. He went on to tell them that if the prophet saw fit to call them to serve as missionaries, that was good enough for him.

    On Prop 8: A man stood up and asked what the church's next move would be on Prop 8 in light of the dominant role that they took in the initial ballot initiative.

    Elder Cook's first response is that he felt that characterizing the church's role in the ballot initiative as "dominant" was open for debate. He stated that other religions in the area worked to have it put on the ballot. Catholic Bishop Neiderhauer (currently in San Francisco, who was in SLC prior to that) wrote a letter to President Monson asking that the LDS church participate in support of the ballot initiative.

    After some discussion, the First Presidency sent a letter in support of Prop 8, and the members responded. He didn't outright say this, but I got the impression that some of the members (and local leaders) responded just a little more strongly than what had been anticipated. I also got the impression that there may have been some disappointment in how the thing snowballed after that.

    While I got the impression this was not a fight the LDS church was going to pursue, Elder Cook went on to say that the doctrine is very clear. Families are important. Marriage is between a man and a woman, etc. He followed that up with saying that those who live the gospel - regardless of their inclinations one way or another - will recieve all of the blessings of the gospel.

    Anyway - I found this stuff interesting and figured some of you might as well.

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    There were no questions about BYU going independent?!?
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    That sounds like good news on the Prop 8 front. I think the world and gay community would be pretty quick to forgive if the church were to simply get out of the way.

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    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Nugent View Post
    There were no questions about BYU going independent?!?
    I wish I'd thought to ask. But unfortunately, no.

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    LOL @ "open for debate"

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFinderson View Post
    That sounds like good news on the Prop 8 front. I think the world and gay community would be pretty quick to forgive if the church were to simply get out of the way.
    The world community? lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    After some discussion, the First Presidency sent a letter in support of Prop 8, and the members responded. He didn't outright say this, but I got the impression that some of the members (and local leaders) responded just a little more strongly than what had been anticipated. I also got the impression that there may have been some disappointment in how the thing snowballed after that.
    I agree with your assesment. I think you have an issue where something that could be interpreted as a directive from the Prophet was taken a lot more serious than was intended because it affirmed the political opinions of the majority. Then once folks invested so much time, blood, sweat and tears they were too entrenched and the de facto "either by my voice or his it is the same" took over.

    When the dust settles it speaks more about the political homogenaity of the LDS people living in the Western US and the love of being right..."Look dammit you dirty hippies, the Prophet of God agrees with us!"

    As for me and my house, I just want the protestors off my TV. If letting gays marry each other accomplishes that end, so be it. The real sin is gay sex and what is a better antidote for sex than marriage?
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    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The world community? lol.
    Robin is ready to speak for them all. He went to Burning man, you know!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The world community? lol.
    Allow me to help Robin out (he pays me for grammatical advice, so I feel obliged to clarify on his behalf). You're interpreting his sentence as if he said "the world and gay communities," when what Robin really meant to say was "the world and the gay community." It was a poorly-worded sentence on his part. Forgive him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    After some discussion, the First Presidency sent a letter in support of Prop 8, and the members responded. He didn't outright say this, but I got the impression that some of the members (and local leaders) responded just a little more strongly than what had been anticipated. I also got the impression that there may have been some disappointment in how the thing snowballed after that.
    This might be the greatest mischaracterization of what actually happened that I have read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelBlue View Post
    This might be the greatest mischaracterization of what actually happened that I have read.
    i agree. saying the members just ran with it is ridiculous. ridiculous, i say!

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    Maybe Elder Cook didn't get the Gettysburg memo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelBlue View Post
    This might be the greatest mischaracterization of what actually happened that I have read.
    Careful, or you'll wind up sounding like Top Ute telling everyone how the whole BYU independence situation has gone down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Maybe Elder Cook didn't get the Gettysburg memo.
    clearly not. most likely it has been shredded by now in some dark room in the basement of the church office building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DU Ute View Post
    Careful, or you'll wind up sounding like Top Ute telling everyone how the whole BYU independence situation has gone down.
    Turns out you didn't have to be much of an insider to know where the instructions were coming from on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    He didn't outright say this, but I got the impression that some of the members (and local leaders) responded just a little more strongly than what had been anticipated. I also got the impression that there may have been some disappointment in how the thing snowballed after that.
    Speaking metahprically: If that horse ran fast and hard, it was only because the Church leadership was flogging it all the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Speaking metahprically: If that horse ran fast and hard, it was only because the Church leadership was flogging it all the way.
    Dude, he is a Special Witness and he said it in church!
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Dude, he is a Special Witness and he said it in church!
    I am questioning Eddie's impression of what E. Cook said, not what E. Cook said.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-25-2010 at 10:02 PM.
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    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelBlue View Post
    This might be the greatest mischaracterization of what actually happened that I have read.
    As I said, it was just my impression. I suppose I could've read Elder Cook wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Maybe Elder Cook didn't get the Gettysburg memo.
    I have to admit, I wasn't interested enough to follow all of the Prop 8 stuff. What is the Gettysburg memo? This is the first I've heard of it. Yes - I suppose I have had my head in the sand a little.

    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Speaking metahprically: If that horse ran fast and hard, it was only because the Church leadership was flogging it all the way.
    Perhaps I might've been more clear in that my perception was that the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve were not pushing it as hard as what some of the leadership in California was. I admit I didn't phrase it that way in calling them "some members". I suppose what I meant was that when folks got it and read it, some of the local leaders ran pretty hard with it. But I don't know enough about what was happening locally in Cali to say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I am questioning Eddie's impression of what E. Cook said, not what E. Cook said.
    This could be true as well. I didn't ask him any questions to clarify and I suppose it's possible that I was miss-reading Elder Cook and he may have been feeling more like "how did we get here" and "we expected more support from the other religions who started this fight and not to be the face of it alone".

    Again - I wasn't in Cali. I don't recall reading the letter or hearing it read over the pulpit. I didn't participate in any of the on-the-ground efforts to know what was being directed and who directed it. I'm just giving my impressions from 5-10 minutes out of a Q&A session.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Maybe Elder Cook didn't get the Gettysburg memo.
    Beat me to it. I'd love to believe what Eddie's saying here (or at least how he interpreted Cook's comments), but Gettysburg references aren't the best way to "chill out" overzealous members.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    I have to admit, I wasn't interested enough to follow all of the Prop 8 stuff. What is the Gettysburg memo? This is the first I've heard of it. Yes - I suppose I have had my head in the sand a little.
    IIRC, President Monson referred to the Prop 8 battle as "our Gettysburg".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donuthole View Post
    Allow me to help Robin out (he pays me for grammatical advice, so I feel obliged to clarify on his behalf). You're interpreting his sentence as if he said "the world and gay communities," when what Robin really meant to say was "the world and the gay community." It was a poorly-worded sentence on his part. Forgive him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    \

    Anyway - I found this stuff interesting and figured some of you might as well.
    Thanks, Eddie, for taking the time to type this up. I found this interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    IIRC, President Monson referred to the Prop 8 battle as "our Gettysburg".
    And just exactly how reliable is that story?

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    This is just something that frustrates me. The AoF state that we will obey the laws of the land.

    This to me just isn't within those teachings.

    One of the reasons that sometimes I just don't care as much about the Church and the rules. If the Church is only going to apply and sustain the Laws as to how it will benefit them, I have no problem doing the same thing when it comes to the rules and Laws that the Church has established for me.

    Quid pro quo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    This is just something that frustrates me. The AoF state that we will obey the laws of the land.

    This to me just isn't within those teachings.

    One of the reasons that sometimes I just don't care as much about the Church and the rules. If the Church is only going to apply and sustain the Laws as to how it will benefit them, I have no problem doing the same thing when it comes to the rules and Laws that the Church has established for me.

    Quid pro quo.
    What specifically are you referring to here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    A couple of Sundays ago we had Stake Conference. We were getting a new Stake Presidency, so we had an Apostle present - Quentin L. Cook. During the Priesthood Leadership session he took the last half of the meeting and openned it up for questions. He accompanied by the Ogden Mission President and a 70 who's name I never could figure out how to spell - and had them help answer some of the questions.

    I was impressed when a couple of men had the guts to ask about immigration and Prop 8. And I wanted to share Elder Cook's response. He indicated that he shares responsibility for Public Relations - so I'm going to assume that he would have been involved when some of this went down and would know what he's talking about.

    First - Immigration. An attorney asked about the church's position on this. Elder Cook basically said "The church has been about as clear as they can be" when it comes to immigration. He reiterated that the church has not taken a position on what should be done with the borders or what the process should be to gain citizenship. Simply that these decisions effect a lot of people - discussion should be held with civility and decisions made keeping in mind the need to be caring and thoughtful of others.

    He also reiterated that the church has always taken the position that missionaries will teach the gospel to whoever wants to hear it wherever they may be. They may live in the area, be on vacation, and may be documented or not.

    The Ogden mission president told a story of getting a call from a concerned citizen that the missionaries were about to baptize someone who was in the country illegally. His response to them was that the two missionaries who were going to baptize the family were also here illegally, so it was OK. He went on to tell them that if the prophet saw fit to call them to serve as missionaries, that was good enough for him.

    On Prop 8: A man stood up and asked what the church's next move would be on Prop 8 in light of the dominant role that they took in the initial ballot initiative.

    Elder Cook's first response is that he felt that characterizing the church's role in the ballot initiative as "dominant" was open for debate. He stated that other religions in the area worked to have it put on the ballot. Catholic Bishop Neiderhauer (currently in San Francisco, who was in SLC prior to that) wrote a letter to President Monson asking that the LDS church participate in support of the ballot initiative.

    After some discussion, the First Presidency sent a letter in support of Prop 8, and the members responded. He didn't outright say this, but I got the impression that some of the members (and local leaders) responded just a little more strongly than what had been anticipated. I also got the impression that there may have been some disappointment in how the thing snowballed after that.


    While I got the impression this was not a fight the LDS church was going to pursue, Elder Cook went on to say that the doctrine is very clear. Families are important. Marriage is between a man and a woman, etc. He followed that up with saying that those who live the gospel - regardless of their inclinations one way or another - will recieve all of the blessings of the gospel.

    Anyway - I found this stuff interesting and figured some of you might as well.
    This is just backpeddling due to the PR fallout, nothing more, nothing less.

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    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    This is just something that frustrates me. The AoF state that we will obey the laws of the land.

    This to me just isn't within those teachings.

    One of the reasons that sometimes I just don't care as much about the Church and the rules. If the Church is only going to apply and sustain the Laws as to how it will benefit them, I have no problem doing the same thing when it comes to the rules and Laws that the Church has established for me.

    Quid pro quo.
    We have a long history of cherrypicking when to obey and disobey that particular A of F.

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    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    What specifically are you referring to here?
    My dislike for those that abuse immigration is well documented on here.

    The fact that the Church call people that are in the country illegally on missions is bothersome.

    They are breaking the law.

    I almost didn't get to go because I messed around with girls. My Stake President made me wait 3 months after my first interview with him because my "relationship" with my youngest brother wasn't in accordance to the gospel. (We didn't like each other and fist fought frequently.)

    So I had to patch shit up with him and wait 3 months for my 2nd interview.

    Then...the Church wasn't going to let me serve a mission because I was too fat.

    So illegals getting to serve is bullshit.

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    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    My dislike for those that abuse immigration is well documented on here.

    The fact that the Church call people that are in the country illegally on missions is bothersome.

    They are breaking the law.

    I almost didn't get to go because I messed around with girls. My Stake President made me wait 3 months after my first interview with him because my "relationship" with my youngest brother wasn't in accordance to the gospel. (We didn't like each other and fist fought frequently.)

    So I had to patch shit up with him and wait 3 months for my 2nd interview.

    Then...the Church wasn't going to let me serve a mission because I was too fat.

    So illegals getting to serve is bullshit.
    Well, the stuff you just pointed out from your experience were spiritual issues, not legal ones. If you had pointed out illegal stuff you had done, you would have made a better case for your argument.

    So just exactly how anal do you want the church to be about being law-abiding? If they clamp down on legal status, what else should they start looking at that they've been conveniently ignoring for awhile?

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