Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Immigration & Prop 8 from an Apostle

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Eddie View Post
    He didn't outright say this, but I got the impression that some of the members (and local leaders) responded just a little more strongly than what had been anticipated. I also got the impression that there may have been some disappointment in how the thing snowballed after that.
    Speaking metahprically: If that horse ran fast and hard, it was only because the Church leadership was flogging it all the way.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
      Speaking metahprically: If that horse ran fast and hard, it was only because the Church leadership was flogging it all the way.
      Dude, he is a Special Witness and he said it in church!
      "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
        Dude, he is a Special Witness and he said it in church!
        I am questioning Eddie's impression of what E. Cook said, not what E. Cook said.
        Last edited by LA Ute; 08-25-2010, 10:02 PM.
        “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
        ― W.H. Auden


        "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
        -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


        "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
        --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by SteelBlue View Post
          This might be the greatest mischaracterization of what actually happened that I have read.
          As I said, it was just my impression. I suppose I could've read Elder Cook wrong.

          Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
          Maybe Elder Cook didn't get the Gettysburg memo.
          I have to admit, I wasn't interested enough to follow all of the Prop 8 stuff. What is the Gettysburg memo? This is the first I've heard of it. Yes - I suppose I have had my head in the sand a little.

          Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
          Speaking metahprically: If that horse ran fast and hard, it was only because the Church leadership was flogging it all the way.
          Perhaps I might've been more clear in that my perception was that the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve were not pushing it as hard as what some of the leadership in California was. I admit I didn't phrase it that way in calling them "some members". I suppose what I meant was that when folks got it and read it, some of the local leaders ran pretty hard with it. But I don't know enough about what was happening locally in Cali to say that.

          Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
          I am questioning Eddie's impression of what E. Cook said, not what E. Cook said.
          This could be true as well. I didn't ask him any questions to clarify and I suppose it's possible that I was miss-reading Elder Cook and he may have been feeling more like "how did we get here" and "we expected more support from the other religions who started this fight and not to be the face of it alone".

          Again - I wasn't in Cali. I don't recall reading the letter or hearing it read over the pulpit. I didn't participate in any of the on-the-ground efforts to know what was being directed and who directed it. I'm just giving my impressions from 5-10 minutes out of a Q&A session.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
            Maybe Elder Cook didn't get the Gettysburg memo.
            Beat me to it. I'd love to believe what Eddie's saying here (or at least how he interpreted Cook's comments), but Gettysburg references aren't the best way to "chill out" overzealous members.
            At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
            -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Eddie View Post
              I have to admit, I wasn't interested enough to follow all of the Prop 8 stuff. What is the Gettysburg memo? This is the first I've heard of it. Yes - I suppose I have had my head in the sand a little.
              IIRC, President Monson referred to the Prop 8 battle as "our Gettysburg".
              At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
              -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Donuthole View Post
                Allow me to help Robin out (he pays me for grammatical advice, so I feel obliged to clarify on his behalf). You're interpreting his sentence as if he said "the world and gay communities," when what Robin really meant to say was "the world and the gay community." It was a poorly-worded sentence on his part. Forgive him.
                You bastard! Send the bill to my studio >

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Eddie View Post
                  \

                  Anyway - I found this stuff interesting and figured some of you might as well.
                  Thanks, Eddie, for taking the time to type this up. I found this interesting.
                  "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
                  -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                    IIRC, President Monson referred to the Prop 8 battle as "our Gettysburg".
                    And just exactly how reliable is that story?
                    Everything in life is an approximation.

                    http://twitter.com/CougarStats

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      This is just something that frustrates me. The AoF state that we will obey the laws of the land.

                      This to me just isn't within those teachings.

                      One of the reasons that sometimes I just don't care as much about the Church and the rules. If the Church is only going to apply and sustain the Laws as to how it will benefit them, I have no problem doing the same thing when it comes to the rules and Laws that the Church has established for me.

                      Quid pro quo.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by The_Tick View Post
                        This is just something that frustrates me. The AoF state that we will obey the laws of the land.

                        This to me just isn't within those teachings.

                        One of the reasons that sometimes I just don't care as much about the Church and the rules. If the Church is only going to apply and sustain the Laws as to how it will benefit them, I have no problem doing the same thing when it comes to the rules and Laws that the Church has established for me.

                        Quid pro quo.
                        What specifically are you referring to here?
                        Everything in life is an approximation.

                        http://twitter.com/CougarStats

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Eddie View Post
                          A couple of Sundays ago we had Stake Conference. We were getting a new Stake Presidency, so we had an Apostle present - Quentin L. Cook. During the Priesthood Leadership session he took the last half of the meeting and openned it up for questions. He accompanied by the Ogden Mission President and a 70 who's name I never could figure out how to spell - and had them help answer some of the questions.

                          I was impressed when a couple of men had the guts to ask about immigration and Prop 8. And I wanted to share Elder Cook's response. He indicated that he shares responsibility for Public Relations - so I'm going to assume that he would have been involved when some of this went down and would know what he's talking about.

                          First - Immigration. An attorney asked about the church's position on this. Elder Cook basically said "The church has been about as clear as they can be" when it comes to immigration. He reiterated that the church has not taken a position on what should be done with the borders or what the process should be to gain citizenship. Simply that these decisions effect a lot of people - discussion should be held with civility and decisions made keeping in mind the need to be caring and thoughtful of others.

                          He also reiterated that the church has always taken the position that missionaries will teach the gospel to whoever wants to hear it wherever they may be. They may live in the area, be on vacation, and may be documented or not.

                          The Ogden mission president told a story of getting a call from a concerned citizen that the missionaries were about to baptize someone who was in the country illegally. His response to them was that the two missionaries who were going to baptize the family were also here illegally, so it was OK. He went on to tell them that if the prophet saw fit to call them to serve as missionaries, that was good enough for him.

                          On Prop 8: A man stood up and asked what the church's next move would be on Prop 8 in light of the dominant role that they took in the initial ballot initiative.

                          Elder Cook's first response is that he felt that characterizing the church's role in the ballot initiative as "dominant" was open for debate. He stated that other religions in the area worked to have it put on the ballot. Catholic Bishop Neiderhauer (currently in San Francisco, who was in SLC prior to that) wrote a letter to President Monson asking that the LDS church participate in support of the ballot initiative.

                          After some discussion, the First Presidency sent a letter in support of Prop 8, and the members responded. He didn't outright say this, but I got the impression that some of the members (and local leaders) responded just a little more strongly than what had been anticipated. I also got the impression that there may have been some disappointment in how the thing snowballed after that.


                          While I got the impression this was not a fight the LDS church was going to pursue, Elder Cook went on to say that the doctrine is very clear. Families are important. Marriage is between a man and a woman, etc. He followed that up with saying that those who live the gospel - regardless of their inclinations one way or another - will recieve all of the blessings of the gospel.

                          Anyway - I found this stuff interesting and figured some of you might as well.
                          This is just backpeddling due to the PR fallout, nothing more, nothing less.
                          Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

                          "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by The_Tick View Post
                            This is just something that frustrates me. The AoF state that we will obey the laws of the land.

                            This to me just isn't within those teachings.

                            One of the reasons that sometimes I just don't care as much about the Church and the rules. If the Church is only going to apply and sustain the Laws as to how it will benefit them, I have no problem doing the same thing when it comes to the rules and Laws that the Church has established for me.

                            Quid pro quo.
                            We have a long history of cherrypicking when to obey and disobey that particular A of F.
                            Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

                            "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                              What specifically are you referring to here?
                              My dislike for those that abuse immigration is well documented on here.

                              The fact that the Church call people that are in the country illegally on missions is bothersome.

                              They are breaking the law.

                              I almost didn't get to go because I messed around with girls. My Stake President made me wait 3 months after my first interview with him because my "relationship" with my youngest brother wasn't in accordance to the gospel. (We didn't like each other and fist fought frequently.)

                              So I had to patch shit up with him and wait 3 months for my 2nd interview.

                              Then...the Church wasn't going to let me serve a mission because I was too fat.

                              So illegals getting to serve is bullshit.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by The_Tick View Post
                                My dislike for those that abuse immigration is well documented on here.

                                The fact that the Church call people that are in the country illegally on missions is bothersome.

                                They are breaking the law.

                                I almost didn't get to go because I messed around with girls. My Stake President made me wait 3 months after my first interview with him because my "relationship" with my youngest brother wasn't in accordance to the gospel. (We didn't like each other and fist fought frequently.)

                                So I had to patch shit up with him and wait 3 months for my 2nd interview.

                                Then...the Church wasn't going to let me serve a mission because I was too fat.

                                So illegals getting to serve is bullshit.
                                Well, the stuff you just pointed out from your experience were spiritual issues, not legal ones. If you had pointed out illegal stuff you had done, you would have made a better case for your argument.

                                So just exactly how anal do you want the church to be about being law-abiding? If they clamp down on legal status, what else should they start looking at that they've been conveniently ignoring for awhile?
                                Everything in life is an approximation.

                                http://twitter.com/CougarStats

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X