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Thread: Prop 8 Has Been Overturned

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    Senior Member The Fourth Nephite's Avatar
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    Default Prop 8 Has Been Overturned

    Just heard on the radio that a gay Federal Judge just overturned Proposition 8.
    Last edited by The Fourth Nephite; 08-04-2010 at 04:23 PM.

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    Not shocking.

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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Damn it! Its two months too late! We could have really used this when the Pac 10 was picking schools.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiveCoug View Post
    Not shocking.
    The surprise would have been if the judge did not overturn Prop 8.

    It was a federal district judge, by the way, not the California Supreme Court.

    This is a federal district judge - a trial court judge - who is trying to make law. Right now there is no Constitutional law precedent supporting such a ruling. Eventually the U.S. Supreme Court will have to decide it. If the Court decided the issue today it would probabaly be a 5-4 decision upholding Prop 8. I guess what the plaintiffs are hoping is that someone on the Supreme Court among the 5-member majority leaves (dies) and Obama gets to appoint a justice.

    It's kind of interesting to contemplate a 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court decision finding a Constitutional right to same-sex marriage. The response to that would make the Roe v. Wade controversy look like a kids' birthday party. (Brown v. Board of Education and U.S. v. Nixon were 9-0. Bush v. Gore was 5-4.)
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-04-2010 at 02:00 PM.
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    Senior Member The Fourth Nephite's Avatar
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    I'm not suprised it was overturned. I feel bad for all the LDS in California that took crap for Prop 8. I know at least one guy lost his job over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The surprise would have been if the judge did not overturn Prop 8.

    It was a federal district judge, by the way, not the California Supreme Court.

    This is a federal district judge - a trial court judge - who is trying to make law. Right now there is no Constitutional law precedent supporting such a ruling. Eventually the U.S. Supreme Court will have to decide it. If the Court decided the issue today it would probabaly be a 5-4 decision upholding Prop 8. I guess what the plaintiffs are hoping is that someone on the Supreme Court among the 5-member majority leaves (dies) and Obama gets to appoint a justice.

    It's kind of interesting to contemplate a 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court decision finding a Constitutional right to same-sex marriage. The response to that would make the Roe v. Wade controversy look like a kids' birthday party. (Brown v. Board of Education and U.S. v. Nixon were 9-0. Bush v. Gore was 5-4.)
    It won't make it to the Supreme Court. The Ninth Circuit won't hesitate overrule this decision. The Ninth Circuit hates to be reversed by the Supreme Court.

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It's kind of interesting to contemplate a 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court decision finding a Constitutional right to same-sex marriage. The response to that would make the Roe v. Wade controversy look like a kids' birthday party. (Brown v. Board of Education and U.S. v. Nixon were 9-0. Bush v. Gore was 5-4.)
    You think people feel more threatened by gay marriage than abortion? Yikes.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
    It won't make it to the Supreme Court. The Ninth Circuit won't hesitate overrule this decision. The Ninth Circuit hates to be reversed by the Supreme Court.
    I hope you are right, but the Ninth hasn't shown much reluctance to be reversed (or has it? I haven't been watching them closely for a while).
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    You think people feel more threatened by gay marriage than abortion? Yikes.
    I think the "freak out" factor will be higher, that's all, with greater indignation. I do not see it that way myself, not even close.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I hope you are right, but the Ninth hasn't shown much reluctance to be reversed (or has it? I haven't been watching them closely for a while).
    It was a poor attempt by me at humor. There's no way in hell the Ninth Circuit is reversing this decision. They may as well rubber stamp this baby so they can ship it off to the Supreme Court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    I know at least one guy lost his job over it.
    +1

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    Striving for mediocrity Art Vandelay's Avatar
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    My 6th grader came home today and told me he heard this while on a trip to Boston, listening to a Yankee game on his transistor radio, when he heard about the prop 8 decision. He said this is a day he will remember in 30 years...

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    BTW, here's a mediamatters.org column from five years ago about O'Reilly screwing with the viewing public by mentioning that the Ninth Circuit gets overturned at a higher clip than any other appellate court. They really served up a facial on O'Reilly by showing that the 1st, 2nd and 10th had higher reversal rates than the 9th.

    It was also nice of them to show that chart with the total cases heard from each circuit and the reversal rates. I'm sure everyone feels great about the Ninth Circuit after seeing that the SC heard a grand total of nine cases from the 1st, 2nd and 10th Circuits combined compared to 19 cases for the Ninth Circuit alone. But hey, the 1st, 2nd and 10th Circuits had higher reversal rates! O'Reilly's full of shit. Who cares that the SC heard, on average, five cases from the other Circuits compared to 19 from the Ninth Circuit.

    Thanks mediamatters for clearing that one up. It's great when you put Fox News in their place.

    http://mediamatters.org/research/200512150016

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    Rabblerouser statman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
    BTW, here's a mediamatters.org column from five years ago about O'Reilly screwing with the viewing public by mentioning that the Ninth Circuit gets overturned at a higher clip than any other appellate court. They really served up a facial on O'Reilly by showing that the 1st, 2nd and 10th had higher reversal rates than the 9th.

    It was also nice of them to show that chart with the total cases heard from each circuit and the reversal rates. I'm sure everyone feels great about the Ninth Circuit after seeing that the SC heard a grand total of nine cases from the 1st, 2nd and 10th Circuits combined compared to 19 cases for the Ninth Circuit alone. But hey, the 1st, 2nd and 10th Circuits had higher reversal rates! O'Reilly's full of shit. Who cares that the SC heard, on average, five cases from the other Circuits compared to 19 from the Ninth Circuit.

    Thanks mediamatters for clearing that one up. It's great when you put Fox News in their place.

    http://mediamatters.org/research/200512150016
    Splitting hairs. "Overturned more than any other Circuit Court" woud have been perfectly accurate. He used the wrong word. The meaning is still the same. The court chose to hear more than 3X as many cases from teh 9th than from any other court is alone an indictment - they go out on the edge of jurisprudence a lot more than any other court.

    He was wrong to use the word "rate," but is charge against the 9th Circuit remains intact...

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    I find many parts of the Judges opinion laughable:

    A few excerpts:
    "The evidence at trial regarding the campaign to pass Proposition 8 uncloaks the most likely explanation for its passage: a desire to advance the belief that opposite-sex couples are morally superior to same-sex couples. FF 79-80."
    Isn't that exactly backwards? Rather than Prop 8 being about heterosexuals asserting their moral superiority, isn't this really all about the same-sex couples asserting the moral equivalency of their relationship? After all, it is the same-sex marriage people who are trying to change the law, not the traditionalists.

    From that perspective, the judges reasoning leads to the opposite conclusion that she reached. See this:

    The arguments surrounding Proposition 8 raise a question similar to that addressed in Lawrence, when the Court asked whether a majority of citizens could use the power of the state to enforce “profound and deep convictions accepted as ethical and moral principles” through the criminal code. 539 US at 571
    Lets leave aside for the moment the many differences between this and a criminal statute like Lawrence. the Judge says:

    The question here is whether California voters can enforce those same principles through regulation of marriage licenses. They cannot.
    Yet that's exactly what she just did. She has decided to enforce and advance her moral and ethical principals through regulation of marriage licenses. It just so happens that, contrary to the views of the majority of Californians and Americans, her moral judgment is that same sex unions are morality equivalent to traditional marriages.

    Tradition alone cannot support legislation
    But apparently non-traditional and new-found, but not generally accepted, liberal views of what marriage and homosexuality should be can support legislation from the bench.

    What is left is evidence that Proposition 8 enacts a moral view that there is something “wrong” with same-sex couples.
    What is left, is evidence that the prior California supreme court and now this federal court have enacted a moral view that there is something "wrong" with traditional marriage.

    It's amazing what we let judges get away with.

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    Rabblerouser statman's Avatar
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    The countdown clock for Temple Marriages has just started ticking. It won't be long before we "get married" at the courthouse, and "get sealed" in the temple. It's already the norm in many parts of the world and will soon be the only way it's done in any temple. Sealers (and Bishops) will no longer have any "power vested in (them) by the State of XXXX." The Church will be strictly out of the marriage business...

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    Quote Originally Posted by statman View Post
    The countdown clock for Temple Marriages has just started ticking. It won't be long before we "get married" at the courthouse, and "get sealed" in the temple. It's already the norm in many parts of the world and will soon be the only way it's done in any temple. Sealers (and Bishops) will no longer have any "power vested in (them) by the State of XXXX." The Church will be strictly out of the marriage business...
    That's how my wife and I did it 10 years ago...

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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scandell View Post
    That's how my wife and I did it 10 years ago...
    Say WHAAAAAAAT?

    Oh, your parents, right?
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

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    Striving for mediocrity Art Vandelay's Avatar
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    I really feel like I should care about this issue more than I do. I'm strangely indifferent. I'm not sure Prop 8 was necessarily bigoted nor do I feel this is the end of the world as we know...I feel fine.
    Last edited by Art Vandelay; 08-04-2010 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Because I'm stupid

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    Quote Originally Posted by statman View Post
    The countdown clock for Temple Marriages has just started ticking. It won't be long before we "get married" at the courthouse, and "get sealed" in the temple. It's already the norm in many parts of the world and will soon be the only way it's done in any temple. Sealers (and Bishops) will no longer have any "power vested in (them) by the State of XXXX." The Church will be strictly out of the marriage business...
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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    Senior Member The Fourth Nephite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vandelay View Post
    I really feel like I should care about this issue more than I do. I'm strangely indifferent. I'm not sure Prop 8 was racial bigotry nor do I feel like this is the end of the world as we know...I feel fine.
    Racial bigotry? Art, we need to talk. Gay is not a race.

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    Senior Member The Fourth Nephite's Avatar
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    I just heard on the radio that the judge that overturned it is openly gay.

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    Striving for mediocrity Art Vandelay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    Racial bigotry? Art, we need to talk. Gay is not a race.
    No wonder this whole thing confuses me. Oops, I will use the creekster excuse and blame my fingers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vandelay View Post
    My 6th grader came home today and told me he heard this while on a trip to Boston, listening to a Yankee game on his transistor radio, when he heard about the prop 8 decision. He said this is a day he will remember in 30 years...
    Not that, sickos.

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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vandelay View Post
    No wonder this whole thing confuses me. Oops, I will use the creekster excuse and blame my fingers.
    I thought Creekster was blaming his canard? Scratch that, he was probably blaming his canary.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

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    Rabblerouser statman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    I promise you, the Church has plans in place for this to happen. They anticipate that the change will have to come and are prepared for it. All it takes is the removal of a few words from teh marriage ceremony and having to bring a civil marriage certificate to the temple with you when you are sealed. At this poin, I think the change is inevitable, and probably not too far off.

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    Huge Member BigPiney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vandelay View Post
    I really feel like I should care about this issue more than I do. I'm strangely indifferent. I'm not sure Prop 8 was necessarily bigoted nor do I feel this is the end of the world as we know...I feel fine.
    Agreed. Heck, I live in California and I really don't care. I do care that I will have to hear people bitch and moan about it at church on Sunday, but other than that I am not so concerned.

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statman View Post
    I promise you, the Church has plans in place for this to happen. They anticipate that the change will have to come and are prepared for it. All it takes is the removal of a few words from teh marriage ceremony and having to bring a civil marriage certificate to the temple with you when you are sealed. At this poin, I think the change is inevitable, and probably not too far off.
    Personally, I think that would be great. No more denying friends and relatives access to marriages involving LDS couples. Win-win.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Quote Originally Posted by statman View Post
    I promise you, the Church has plans in place for this to happen. They anticipate that the change will have to come and are prepared for it. All it takes is the removal of a few words from teh marriage ceremony and having to bring a civil marriage certificate to the temple with you when you are sealed. At this poin, I think the change is inevitable, and probably not too far off.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Personally, I think that would be great. No more denying friends and relatives access to marriages involving LDS couples. Win-win.
    Yeah, why haven't we been doing this for years, other than the fact that we'd have to spend more on weddings for chapels and such. I'm renting my daughter out a big Catholic or Protestant affair - ain't no way she's having a ceremony in some ratty cultural hall right after the Pinewood Derby.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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