I learned in church today

[TripletDaddy]

This seems like a correlated response to what BY originally was purported to have said. I mean, you can't just be granting salvation to people that are 18 years old otherwise they'll fall off the wagon, drink beer and go apostate all while still being able to reach the CK.

What about if you die while on your mission??

[Uncle Ted]

What about if you die while on your mission??

You die.

[Moliere]

What about if you die while on your mission??

It depends. If you went foreign you are probably okay. If you went state side and were near the end of the mission, you are probably okay as you would have developed a testimony by then. But if you went stateside and only served less than maybe 14 months, chances are you probably didn't yet have a testimony so you're likely doomed to the TerK.

[Eddie]

That's a good plan, to associate sex and money. I can't wait until she learns how much she can make by kissing a guy.

One of my friends bet a neighbor girl, who was 11 or 12 at the time, $50 that she wouldn't make it to 16 before kissing a boy. So far so good for her, she's now 14.

We were together a couple of weeks ago and he was teasing her about the bet - telling some of the boys there that he'd split the money with them if they help make sure he wins.

[Pheidippides]

On Sunday, I learned in that is is perfectly normal to move away from your beloved state of California because of a law that is going to force you, as a schoolteacher, to teach about The Gays and Their Perverted Sexytimes, even though two legislators of your same faith have informed you this is not the case, because Ezra Taft Benson said so. And that is is okay to denigrate your current state of Texas while doing so because Texas is a horrible place compared to California. Except for those Gay Sexytimes.

[Indy Coug]

What about if you die while on your mission??

Your Facebook account will live on forever.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

One of my friends bet a neighbor girl, who was 11 or 12 at the time, $50 that she wouldn't make it to 16 before kissing a boy. So far so good for her, she's now 14.

We were together a couple of weeks ago and he was teasing her about the bet - telling some of the boys there that he'd split the money with them if they help make sure he wins.

I think it's safe to assume that there's no chance this turns out poorly.


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[Paperback Writer]

I like the hollywood correlated versions of the stories better. Maybe I should leave my iPad on home so I am not tempted to research the stories during the lesson.

Teaching this lesson to YM was one of the reasons (I think) that lead to my release. What's often left out is the promise made by Franklin D. Richards that the handcart pioneers would be spared of harsh winter storms and the onset of an early winter. I think that's one of the reasons so many were willing to proceed west and leave Winter Quarters. As you mentioned, others chose to wait. At least FDR got BY's attention once he got to SLC and passed the handcart pioneers on the trail and saw first hand the impending catastrophe. It's more faith promoting to focus on the rescue than to analyze why the Willie and Martin Handcart companies decided to leave WQ in the first place...to consider faith based on an answer to personal prayer and faith based on what a high ranking church leader is promising.

Also, the Sweetwater rescue is exaggerated as also mentioned. I read an article about someone who conducted a time-motion study and concluded that it would have been impossilbe for a small group of YM (or 20 somethings) to carry the surviving members of the party across the river. Either there were a much larger group involved in assisting/carrying the handcart pioneers or they carried only a few across and most crossed the river on their own. It became a sticking point in a planning session for a youth pioneer trek when a sister in the ward wanted (demanded) that a group of YM carry the YW across a stream during the trek because that is "how the handcart pioneers did it". They decided to put it in the program anyway. And guess what? When the time came for the YM to carry all the YW across the stream they had to discontinue it because it was taking too long.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

What about if you die while on your mission??

Straight to CK1.

[Eddie]

Teaching this lesson to YM was one of the reasons (I think) that lead to my release. What's often left out is the promise made by Franklin D. Richards that the handcart pioneers would be spared of harsh winter storms and the onset of an early winter. I think that's one of the reasons so many were willing to proceed west and leave Winter Quarters. As you mentioned, others chose to wait. At least FDR got BY's attention once he got to SLC and passed the handcart pioneers on the trail and saw first hand the impending catastrophe. It's more faith promoting to focus on the rescue than to analyze why the Willie and Martin Handcart companies decided to leave WQ in the first place...to consider faith based on an answer to personal prayer and faith based on what a high ranking church leader is promising.

Also, the Sweetwater rescue is exaggerated as also mentioned. I read an article about someone who conducted a time-motion study and concluded that it would have been impossilbe for a small group of YM (or 20 somethings) to carry the surviving members of the party across the river. Either there were a much larger group involved in assisting/carrying the handcart pioneers or they carried only a few across and most crossed the river on their own. It became a sticking point in a planning session for a youth pioneer trek when a sister in the ward wanted (demanded) that a group of YM carry the YW across a stream during the trek because that is "how the handcart pioneers did it". They decided to put it in the program anyway. And guess what? When the time came for the YM to carry all the YW across the stream they had to discontinue it because it was taking too long.

So...as I think about this, I think that God has a whole different perspective on death. I think he recognizes that it is the conclusion that we all arrive at, at one point or another. I don't necessarily think he sees it as good or bad, just part of the plan. I do wonder how he views pain and suffering. Again, I don't think he sees it as a good think and I don't think he enjoys seeing us suffer. But I also think he probably doesn't mind sometimes that we do - if this really is a learning experience and good is coming from it (ultimately). I think of my own kids. I hate that they suffer when they get shots - when they are little they look up at me with those big sad eyes as if to say "I thought you loved me, I thought you were here to protect me, and you let them do this to me?!? The reality is that I know it hurts - and I know it's necessary.

And I wonder if God doesn't see it the same way.

With that in mind - I wonder if God doesn't let us make all kinds of decisions without stopping us even though we pray about it asking for His confirmation that the decision is right and even though He knows that ultimately we are going to learn a painful experience, simply because he views pain differently than we do.

So maybe, just maybe, someone like FDR did receive some kind of confirmation that it would be OK if they left late. Maybe he interpreted that to mean that the weather would be fine for the trip. Maybe God intended for him to understand that either way things would work out, so it was OK if they decided to leave late.

Obviously this is a lot of speculation. But I find the concept that God maybe (probably?) views pain and suffering differently than we do interesting.

[Northwestcoug]

So...as I think about this, I think that God has a whole different perspective on death. I think he recognizes that it is the conclusion that we all arrive at, at one point or another. I don't necessarily think he sees it as good or bad, just part of the plan. I do wonder how he views pain and suffering. Again, I don't think he sees it as a good think and I don't think he enjoys seeing us suffer. But I also think he probably doesn't mind sometimes that we do - if this really is a learning experience and good is coming from it (ultimately). I think of my own kids. I hate that they suffer when they get shots - when they are little they look up at me with those big sad eyes as if to say "I thought you loved me, I thought you were here to protect me, and you let them do this to me?!? The reality is that I know it hurts - and I know it's necessary.

And I wonder if God doesn't see it the same way.

With that in mind - I wonder if God doesn't let us make all kinds of decisions without stopping us even though we pray about it asking for His confirmation that the decision is right and even though He knows that ultimately we are going to learn a painful experience, simply because he views pain differently than we do.

So maybe, just maybe, someone like FDR did receive some kind of confirmation that it would be OK if they left late. Maybe he interpreted that to mean that the weather would be fine for the trip. Maybe God intended for him to understand that either way things would work out, so it was OK if they decided to leave late.

Obviously this is a lot of speculation. But I find the concept that God maybe (probably?) views pain and suffering differently than we do interesting.

Maybe. But I sure as hell don't like the idea of deity 'answering' the prayer of an ecclesiastical leader who quite literally has hundreds of his followers' lives in his hands, only to find out he lied to the leader to make sure many die horribly to keep his divine plan inscrutable.

[Eddie]

Maybe. But I sure as hell don't like the idea of deity 'answering' the prayer of an ecclesiastical leader who quite literally has hundreds of his followers' lives in his hands, only to find out he lied to the leader to make sure many die horribly to keep his divine plan inscrutable.

Perhaps I didn't explain well, or you misunderstood. But I certainly would have a problem with a lying deity as well. And I don't believe in a deity who would want to "make sure many die horribly". I'm just adding to my own perspective of a belief in a God that lets us make our own decisions - with the understanding that we may view the consequences of those decisions differently than he does. And outcomes that we might view as "horrible", He may not view the same way.

[Northwestcoug]

Perhaps I didn't explain well, or you misunderstood. But I certainly would have a problem with a lying deity as well. And I don't believe in a deity who would want to "make sure many die horribly". I'm just adding to my own perspective of a belief in a God that lets us make our own decisions - with the understanding that we may view the consequences of those decisions differently than he does. And outcomes that we might view as "horrible", He may not view the same way.

I guess I'm just looking at what I see is the logical conclusion to your thoughts. The handcart companies were promised by their leader (and by extension, God) that they would arrive safely in the valley. They didn't. If God had a reason for them to die, then he lied to the leader, if he was speaking prophetically.

[Non Sequitur]

Perhaps I didn't explain well, or you misunderstood. But I certainly would have a problem with a lying deity as well. And I don't believe in a deity who would want to "make sure many die horribly". I'm just adding to my own perspective of a belief in a God that lets us make our own decisions - with the understanding that we may view the consequences of those decisions differently than he does. And outcomes that we might view as "horrible", He may not view the same way.

Why is belief in deity dependent on the deity being benevolent? Why are we so quick to dismiss the possibility that a deity could be an ass?

[Uncle Ted]

I learned that the Sunday school manual gives the "hollywood version" of the pioneer stories. The lesson manual states:


https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-...aving?lang=eng

Other than using poorly built handcarts and ignoring the advise of the people that knew the trail I guess that is true...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_handcart_pioneers

And of the three young handcart rescuers that secured their place in the celestial kingdom...

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-...aving?lang=eng



I like the hollywood versions of the stories better. Maybe I should leave my iPad on home so I am not tempted to research the stories during the lesson.

Here is another faith promoting BY/handcart story that the manual should cover...

Bagley was the first historian to point to one of Brigham's farfetched development schemes as a leitmotif crucially interwoven with the handcart debacle. This involved the procurement of a gigantic and ultimately useless steam engine. In early 1855, the Prophet ordered Apostle Erastus Snow to buy an engine in St. Louis and ship it overland to Salt Lake. The ultimate purpose of the contraption remains uncertain, but Bagley believes it was intended to power a steamboat to navigate the Great Salt Lake.

Against his better judgement, Snow purchased an engine weighing 13,000 pounds. It was loaded in pieces into five separate wagons. A "church train" under Isaac Allred lugged the onerous burden to thirty miles west of the Missouri River, where the team gave up and deposited the steam engine in a farmer's yard.

Furious, the Prophet ordered another party under Abraham Smoot to retrieve the engine and get it to Salt Lake City during the summer of 1856. This new train labored mightily to perform the task. In western Wyoming, as noted earlier, Smoot's team met and interacted with the rescue party looking for the Willie and Martin Companies. Finally Smoot, too, gave up on the debilitating job and cached the cumbersome baggage at Fort Bridger.

This only further infuriated Brigham. Incredible through it may seem, the Prophet ordered some of the rescue teams to divert their resources from saving handcart emigrants to gather up the "freight" at Fort Bridger. Proof of these orders is preserved in the LDS Archives. Thus in a report filed in the capital on December 12, 1856, Caleb Grant, a member of Smoot's team, wrote, "On [November] 3rd inst, we met an express from the Governor, stating that some one was to return & bring on from Bridger the wagons & freight we had left there as several useless & tired out cattle left there by us."

Even more explicitly, another member of Smoot's team, Franklin Wooley, recorded,

At Fort Ridges [Bridger] we left 8 waggons and their loads as it was impossible for our teams to take them all, though to the valley when at the mouth of Echo Kanyon Bro Smoot received a letter from Bro Young directing him to bring all the goods in and if he had not enough teams to call upon the brethren who were out in the mountains with os teams to assist the hand cart emigrations, to assist in bring the waggons that we left at Bridges.

The Willie Company was made aware of this diversion of teams to haul freight instead of save lives, for on November 4, William Woodward recorded in the company's official journal,

Franklin B. Woolley came on from A.O. Smoot's train informing the company that President B. Young had sent word that some freight still lying at "Fort Bridger" was to be brought in this season & that some teams and men of our company were needed to go on to "Bridger". Several teams & men were selected for the trip.

http://books.google.com/books?id=qR5...nepage&f=false

Also see http://user.xmission.com/~research/central/handcart.pdf

Just think... if it was not for the sacrifices of these early pioneers the Salt Lake Valley may not have seen steam power for years.