I learned in church today

[UtahDan]

I was scolded today by the Primerica Prez.

By way of background, the phrase "fold your arms" is ambiguous. Technically, we are crossing our arms, not folding them. So now when we are asked to fold our arms, I try to comply literally. I extend my arms in front of me, palms up, then fold them back towards me as though I were trying to touch my shoulders. The problem (i guess) is that all my CTR 6 students are now doing this, as well. Today we were asked to fold our arms for the opening prayer and our entire row of 7 kids had their elbows up and hands on shoulders. They were also laughing. I think it bothered the hostess or whatever she is called. The one the leads all of the singing.

after the singing hour, she told me that "we have to try to set better examples for the kids." she also said that the example starts with the teacher.

Ps on a higher note, I have now memorized all the verses of "Nephi's Courage," which is an awesome tune.

You are a real life Billy Madison. I hope there is a hot teacher somewhere in the mix for you. And that you won't need to pretend to pee your pants.

[Portland Ute]

Coulda fooled me.
http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...88&postcount=1

That's not the least bit pretentious...


Even Viking was impressed by that display.

[Babs]

That's not the least bit pretentious...


Even Viking was impressed by that display.

Yeah. wuap thought Tim was trying to be funny. Maybe so, but it didn't work because everybody knows that that's how Tim really feels.

[YOhio]

Hey CUF! It's not "Beat up on Tim" Sunday. Back off.

[Babs]

Hey CUF! It's not "Beat up on Tim" Sunday. Back off.

hahaha. Way to kick a guy when he's down.

[Tim]

Hey CUF! It's not "Beat up on Tim" Sunday. Back off.

I'm at a point where I don't really care what other people think of me, so it doesn't really bother me if people disagree with me. What bothers me is the multiple standards used by the in-crowd to justify the way they treat people here. I'm accused of being condescending, yet the accusations themselves are generally condescending. I always find it humorous when people accuse me of being condescending in condescending ways. Some people aren't very self-aware, I guess...

[Tim]

hahaha. Way to kick a guy when he's down.

I'm not down.

[ERCougar]

I'm at a point where I don't really care what other people think of me, so it doesn't really bother me if people disagree with me. What bothers me is the multiple standards used by the in-crowd to justify the way they treat people here. I'm accused of being condescending, yet the accusations themselves are generally condescending. I always find it humorous when people accuse me of being condescending in condescending ways. Some people aren't very self-aware, I guess...

<chuckle>

[Tim]

It's easy to be an expert on parenting before you have kids. When you have a few kids you will see that's it not always easy to apply that expertise and idealism.

I'm not claiming to be an expert. I'm sure you have opinions about things you're not an expert on, though, and that you believe your opinion should be valued. Nor do I see you railing on anyone else who shares opinions of things they're not "experts" in. For example, I've never seen you respond condescendingly to non-doctors who give a medical opinion that may no be informed by umpteen years of medical school, but instead personal research. If someone posted here, "I think I have something wrong with my heart," I can't imagine you'd respond with, "Well, when you're a cardiologist you can make judgements like that. Until then, your opinion means nothing. Sorry for being condescending."

Think of all the posts here about food. If we had a chef on the site would we be okay with him/her ridiculing everyone's food opinions and restaurant reviews just because they hadn't been to culinary school? The idea sounds preposterous, yet that's what happens whenever I mention something about parenting. It's perplexing that there's such a double standard.

There's value in life in listening to the theoretical opinions of people who aren't in the thick of things. Wisdom can come from a number of sources, some of them based on study, some from unbiased observation, and some from personal experience. Why shut down someone who may have something value to contribute, even if it's not valuable to you? Just say "I disagree based on my experience" and move on. This is a community -- that means that people with different viewpoints have a place to share their opinions.

No big deal, though. Life goes on.

[CardiacCoug]

There's value in life in listening to the theoretical opinions of people who aren't in the thick of things. Wisdom can come from a number of sources, some of them based on study, some from unbiased observation, and some from personal experience. Why shut down someone who may have something value to contribute, even if it's not valuable to you? Just say "I disagree based on my experience" and move on. This is a community -- that means that people with different viewpoints have a place to share their opinions.

No big deal, though. Life goes on.

Sure, that makes sense and I think people are listening to your opinion and the response from the parents is "It's not as simple as you seem to think it is." and "Show a little empathy for the parents."

The thing that has surprised me the most about being a parent is how each kid is unique and how each kid reacts totally differently to each parenting strategy. They really are their own people and impossible to control at times.

Not to dig up an old thread (but I will anyway ) but the example of being irritated because kids are crying and making noise on the airplane just kills me. Nobody wants the kids to shut up any more than the parents and sometimes it's just not possible. Same thing probably goes for Sacrament Meeting.

Most good people like you in those situations think, "Oh those poor parents, that's a tough situation to be in with kids that won't be quiet." They don't think "Why are they such bad parents who can't shut their kids up so I can enjoy this flight or Sacrament Meeting a little more?"

[Tim]

Sure, that makes sense and I think people are listening to your opinion and the response from the parents is "It's not as simple as you seem to think it is." and "Show a little empathy for the parents."

I hate that I have to rehash this every time the topic comes up. You're making a mistake by assuming that I think it's easy to be a parent. I've never suggested as much. NEVER.

I have empathy for parents who are making honest attempts to control their children but who are unsuccessful. My wife and I frequently hold children of the families around us at church when the parents are overwhelmed or have to take their kids out (See how that fits in your assumptions about me). I love children, I love babies. I hate that I have to constantly re-explain this. My issue is with parents not actually making an effort. Saying "being reverent is nice" is lip service.

Not to dig up an old thread (but I will anyway ) but the example of being irritated because kids are crying and making noise on the airplane just kills me. Nobody wants the kids to shut up any more than the parents and sometimes it's just not possible. Same thing probably goes for Sacrament Meeting.

Apparently you're either not actually digging up that thread and re-reading it, or you're simply not very good at reading words that are actually in a post and you're using your foggy memory to "remember" how you think the thread was. I never stated in that thread that I had an issue with crying children. I had an issue with parents doing nothing about the crying child. Sitting there with headphones on pretending like it wasn't happening, doing nothing to calm the child, while the rest of us couldn't ignore it. Suggesting that that parent should've done more to quiet their child shouldn't be seen as a statement that I don't love children. Suggesting that I'd like to take my wife on a vacation to a place that doesn't allow children isn't a suggestion that I don't love children.

The only reason this belief that I hate children stays with me is because of people like you who keep "remembering" something that I never actually said.

Most good people like you in those situations think, "Oh those poor parents, that's a tough situation to be in with kids that won't be quiet." They don't think "Why are they such bad parents who can't shut their kids up so I can enjoy this flight or Sacrament Meeting a little more?"

Again... assumptions, not reality. The fault is completely on you on this, Cardiac, and you need to re-evaluate your approach to reading other peoples' posts if you can't do it honestly and with an open mind. All you're doing is smearing me in the process. You make the mistakes and I pay the consequences...

[UtahDan]

I'm at a point where I don't really care what other people think of me, so it doesn't really bother me if people disagree with me. What bothers me is the multiple standards used by the in-crowd to justify the way they treat people here. I'm accused of being condescending, yet the accusations themselves are generally condescending. I always find it humorous when people accuse me of being condescending in condescending ways. Some people aren't very self-aware, I guess...

All children are hard to manage for three hours of church. It's not reasonable to imagine that they will behave for all of that time or even any of that time on bad days. It's one reason I always thought church was way too long. It's hard for adults to sit still that long.

Most people try to manage that as best they can but there are definitely some who either (1) give up and don't try or (2) are weak parents/personalities in general and won't/don't try/know how. I think what people are saying to you Tim (though it has turned into a gratuitous dog pile) is that it is much harder to judge which of those things is happening for non-parents. I don't think the point would have been made to you over and over here had you not sounded as certain as you did that you knew that "it's nice to be reverent" was an example of non-parenting. That might be the best approach for that child (for example, one of my kids is very difficult to come at head on, if you do she just digs in tighter no matter how mad you get) or you could be right that the person is being discourteous. Hard to say without more context, though certainly possible this was bad parenting/discourteous.

At some point a child needs to be taken outside whether you are at church, a wedding or a movie theater. That is the better measure of courtesy to me. In other words, what do they do after what ever tactics they are using fail. But I think church is like a kids movie. If you have ever been to a kids movie as an adult, you notice there is lots of noise, getting up and down, talking, crying, etc. It's a kids movie. You just come in with a lot higher tolerance level than if you are at an adult movie and someone decides to talk through it. Also, I like you.

[ERCougar]

Weird that coming on a board full of members of larger than average families and calling a parent "naively ignorant" while having no children of your own (and apparently missing the irony) wouldn't garner a more favorable response.

[Tim]

All children are hard to manage for three hours of church. It's not reasonable to imagine that they will behave for all of that time or even any of that time on bad days. It's one reason I always thought church was way too long. It's hard for adults to sit still that long.

Most people try to manage that as best they can but there are definitely some who either (1) give up and don't try or (2) are weak parents/personalities in general and won't/don't try/know how. I think what people are saying to you Tim (though it has turned into a gratuitous dog pile) is that it is much harder to judge which of those things is happening for non-parents. I don't think the point would have been made to you over and over here had you not sounded as certain as you did that you knew that "it's nice to be reverent" was an example of non-parenting. That might be the best approach for that child (for example, one of my kids is very difficult to come at head on, if you do she just digs in tighter no matter how mad you get) or you could be right that the person is being discourteous. Hard to say without more context, though certainly possible this was bad parenting/discourteous.

At some point a child needs to be taken outside whether you are at church, a wedding or a movie theater. That is the better measure of courtesy to me. In other words, what do they do after what ever tactics they are using fail. But I think church is like a kids movie. If you have ever been to a kids movie as an adult, you notice there is lots of noise, getting up and down, talking, crying, etc. It's a kids movie. You just come in with a lot higher tolerance level than if you are at an adult movie and someone decides to talk through it. Also, I like you.

Thank you for being reasonable and at least attempting to understand me. I don't expect to be agreed with -- heck, I kindof like it better when we all disagree on things. That some can't disagree with me without being ugly is what's tough to understand.

[Tim]

Weird that coming on a board full of members of larger than average families and calling a parent "naively ignorant" while having no children of your own (and apparently missing the irony) wouldn't garner a more favorable response.

I don't expect agreement, just respect and civility. You've abandoned both of those today.