John Dehlin is thinking about bringing Mormon Stories back

[BlueK]

Sure. This is what you said:

I believe in the following:

1) God directs the church
2) God allows leaders to be human and make mistakes. Sometimes big mistakes.

Those two statements are compatible. Clearly "God directs the church" does NOT mean that leaders are robots or avatars for God and everything they do and every policy/doctrine they promote will be objectively viewed as correct by all future generations. It means that God inspires and motivates the church leaders and they do wonderful things and provide wonderful service and generally do the best they can but revelation is a messy and imperfect process and for reasons that are sometimes hard to understand, they sometimes screw up. And we should love them and forgive them just like we are commanded to love and forgive anyone else.

1. I try to live my life to seek direction from God. Many times, if not daily, I feel that direction to some extent in my life, well beyond what I deserve.
2. He also allows me to be human and make mistakes. Sometimes big mistakes.

It's the same for church leaders, but we have an element of culture in our church that for some reason makes us elevate them to an unfair standard beyond what God would intend, IMO.

[smokymountainrain]

just seems like as it relates to something so important, if god is directing the church, they would get that right. seems a little different than me trying to decide if i want to take 7th east on the way home vs I-15.

to be clear, i am all in - but i think these are fair questions.

[Jeff Lebowski]

just seems like as it relates to something so important, if god is directing the church, they would get that right. seems a little different than me trying to decide if i want to take 7th east on the way home vs I-15.

to be clear, i am all in - but i think these are fair questions.

"OK guys, I am going to give you free will and agency and let you learn and grow through mistakes. Except on important stuff."

[falafel]

I want one!

When I go to restaurants, I typically order by pictures. If I see something that looks good, I can't get it out of my head. It goes along with my lack of impulse control.

Yeah, I am embarrassed to admit that I want one.

Is it an all-beef kosher dog?

You guys, this looks terrible.

[BigFatMeanie]

You guys, this looks terrible.

Mmm. Hot dogs and chicken. And I really hope that is cheese rather than mustard.

I would totally eat one right now. And it likely won't even raise my insulin level - Bonus!

[cowboy]

Sure. This is what you said:

I believe in the following:

1) God directs the church
2) God allows leaders to be human and make mistakes. Sometimes big mistakes.

Those two statements are compatible. Clearly "God directs the church" does NOT mean that leaders are robots or avatars for God and everything they do and every policy/doctrine they promote will be objectively viewed as correct by all future generations. It means that God inspires and motivates the church leaders and they do wonderful things and provide wonderful service and generally do the best they can but revelation is a messy and imperfect process and for reasons that are sometimes hard to understand, they sometimes screw up. And we should love them and forgive them just like we are commanded to love and forgive anyone else.

You describe exactly how I feel. I don't know why we believe that suddenly God takes away our opportunity to learn through experience when we are called to lead. In fairness, it took me 40 years to understand this, so just because it seems obvious to me now doesn't mean I don't understand why people struggle with the concept.

"OK guys, I am going to give you free will and agency and let you learn and grow through mistakes. Except on important stuff."

Again, the disconnect of this seems obvious to me now, but it took me a while. We tend to think in terms of our timeline perspective, when most likely God expects it to take generations to finally get his leaders to overcome their culturally-ingrained paradigms and move the proper direction on some issues. I believe that what should matter to us is trying to understand his will for ourselves and those for whom we are responsible as we pray, study, and/or listen to our leaders.

You are a good dude, JL, and I wish you could be my daughter's ecclesiastical leader while she is there.

[Pelado]

just seems like as it relates to something so important, if god is directing the church, they would get that right. seems a little different than me trying to decide if i want to take 7th east on the way home vs I-15.

to be clear, i am all in - but i think these are fair questions.

But more importantly, are you taking the freeway or 7th East?

[Jeff Lebowski]

You describe exactly how I feel. I don't know why we believe that suddenly God takes away our opportunity to learn through experience when we are called to lead. In fairness, it took me 40 years to understand this, so just because it seems obvious to me now doesn't mean I don't understand why people struggle with the concept.


Again, the disconnect of this seems obvious to me now, but it took me a while. We tend to think in terms of our timeline perspective, when most likely God expects it to take generations to finally get his leaders to overcome their culturally-ingrained paradigms and move the proper direction on some issues. I believe that what should matter to us is trying to understand his will for ourselves and those for whom we are responsible as we pray, study, and/or listen to our leaders.

You are a good dude, JL, and I wish you could be my daughter's ecclesiastical leader while she is there.

That is very kind of you. Thanks.

Now what do you think of that chicken hot dog thing? Yes or no?

[smokymountainrain]

"OK guys, I am going to give you free will and agency and let you learn and grow through mistakes. Except on important stuff."

"okay guys, on the important stuff, the church is yours to direct. i'm going to go ahead and take a hands off approach. just don't tell the people!"

[smokymountainrain]

But more importantly, are you taking the freeway or 7th East?

freeway. i hate stop lights.

[MartyFunkhouser]

guys you just don’t get it. this is a letter signed by the first presidency explicitly in their capacity as such, but they were speaking as men! not as divinely called and set apart mouthpieces of god. duh!

I'm starting to think that you might be joining the Apostate ranks at some point. I urge you not to. I'd prefer you to be on the other side. Please doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.

[Moliere]

"OK guys, I am going to give you free will and agency and let you learn and grow through mistakes. Except on important stuff."

So did God tell them to not have the ban and they continued having it? Or did god just let them figure t out on their own without telling them? Or maybe God gave them scriptures that tell them not to have the ban (Peters dream), and instead they interpreted those scriptures to mean they should have the ban (curse of Cain, book of Abraham, white and delight some, etc.) because prophets aren’t very good at interpreting scriptures.

I’m with SMR on this one in that this is a huge doctrinal issue that I’d expect a God with a living mouthpiece on the earth to correct sooner than later...but maybe it happened sooner when looking at gods timeline. But it does allow me to mentally ignore a lot of the dumb stuff taught at church and in general conference since we all know at some point that dumb stuff will be not considered inspired or doctrine anyway.

Of course, I’m also a Mormon deist that thinks god started it all in motion and allows us to figure it out.

[creekster]

So did God tell them to not have the ban and they continued having it? Or did god just let them figure t out on their own without telling them? Or maybe God gave them scriptures that tell them not to have the ban (Peters dream), and instead they interpreted those scriptures to mean they should have the ban (curse of Cain, book of Abraham, white and delight some, etc.) because prophets aren’t very good at interpreting scriptures.

I’m with SMR on this one in that this is a huge doctrinal issue that I’d expect a God with a living mouthpiece on the earth to correct sooner than later...but maybe it happened sooner when looking at gods timeline. But it does allow me to mentally ignore a lot of the dumb stuff taught at church and in general conference since we all know at some point that dumb stuff will be not considered inspired or doctrine anyway.

Of course, I’m also a Mormon deist that thinks god started it all in motion and allows us to figure it out.

I am not sure you are really a deist, given your first two paragraphs. I think the punctuated equilibrium overlay on a type of deism really fits what we see very well.

[Eddie]

just seems like as it relates to something so important, if god is directing the church, they would get that right. seems a little different than me trying to decide if i want to take 7th east on the way home vs I-15.

to be clear, i am all in - but i think these are fair questions.

How important is it? I mean, where does it rank? And how do you rank it among other issues?

I don't mean to imply that racism isn't a bad thing or that it should be ignored. That's not what I'm saying at all.

But I do think that we have a pretty limited understanding of what is important and exactly HOW important it is. And I'd even agree with the concept that sometimes leaders have those moments of clarity where they receive some "light and knowledge" - and suddenly that piece of light and knowledge becomes one of the most important concepts of the day. So it gets all of the attention and all of the teaching based on the understanding and within the context that that particular leader understands it. But I'd bet that even within those instances, there isn't necessarily a perfect understanding of all of the ramifications of that specific piece of light and knowledge they've just received.

I just think it's impossible for us to weigh the importance of something as far as it's importance to God based on our own level of understanding. And we might be able to get a sense that something is pretty important to Him - but even then, I don't think we have context.

[myboynoah]

You guys, this looks terrible.

What?!?!?

Would you prefer a bratwurst?