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Thread: John Dehlin is thinking about bringing Mormon Stories back

  1. #661

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I have no idea what the dynamics were. I am guessing they were racist (typical for the times) and doubled down on a racist doctrine and for whatever reason god didn't intervene. Does it need to be more complicated than that?
    IF we can just throw out something the church called doctrine to leaders make mistakes, how is that different from any other church? Basically anything about the church or its teachings can change at any moment then, and whatever it was before was a mistake.

    basically, what other doctrine could just be a mistake?
    Last edited by Maximus; 09-18-2018 at 10:50 AM.

  2. #662
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Maximus;1381239

    basically, what other doctrine could just be a mistake?[/QUOTE]

    Adam-God.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  3. #663

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    I really like this book. Takes a little work to read as it's very academic in style, but it does a great job in explaining the development of LDS doctrines over time with comparison to ancient versions of the same doctrines or ideas. It's referenced up the wazzo. Givens does a great job with it. I don't know if it's been discussed in any other thread here. There is a section on the priesthood and Adam-God.

    https://www.amazon.com/Wrestling-Ang...e+angel+givens

  4. #664
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    IF we can just throw out something the church called doctrine to leaders make mistakes, how is that different from any other church? Basically anything about the church or its teachings can change at any moment then, and whatever it was before was a mistake.

    basically, what other doctrine could just be a mistake?
    I think there are countless things that make our church unique. But if you have believed that perfect, unchanging doctrine is what distinguishes us, then it is time for a recalibration. "Policy may change, but doctrine never changes" is a myth. In addition to the obvious (adam-god, polygamy, priesthood ban), lots of LDS doctrines have evolved over time, including things as fundamental as salvation for the dead, the requirements for salvation, and even the nature of the godhead**.

    I think it is healthy to recognize that EVERYTHING we have - scriptures, revelations, inspirational writings, first presidency letters, etc. - is filtered through humans and is therefore subject to human influence (i.e., error). We have no choice but to humbly and earnestly filter it as best we can to sift out the human vs. the divine. You can choose to view that cynically or you can choose to view it with hope and faith as a journey of spiritual growth and exploration.

    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. - 1 Corinthians 13:12
    ** I highly recommend "This is My Doctrine" by Charles Harrell. It is a two-volume work systematically exploring how LDS doctrines have developed and changed. Fascinating book.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  5. #665

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    i suspect if you were to ask current church leadership whether disagreement with a letter specifically addressed to someone by that person, signed by the first presidency its capacity as such, the answer you would get would be different than “we’ll it’s your responsibility to filter our messages.” in fact, sam young is a pretty damn good test case.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  6. #666
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    i suspect if you were to ask current church leadership whether disagreement with a letter specifically addressed to someone by that person, signed by the first presidency its capacity as such, the answer you would get would be different than “we’ll it’s your responsibility to filter our messages.” in fact, sam young is a pretty damn good test case.
    That doesn't change my point at all.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  7. #667

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    That doesn't change my point at all.
    it makes it circular and basically means you’re denver snuffer
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  8. #668
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    it makes it circular and basically means you’re denver snuffer
    Or Brigham Young. Or Charles Penrose. Or J. Reuben Clark.

    "We can tell when the speakers are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost' only when we, ourselves are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost.' In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak." -- J. Reuben Clark, 1954

    "And none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God... would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves." -- Charles Penrose, 1852

    "What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." -- BY (JD 9:150)

    "I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord." -- BY, JD 1:312
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  9. #669

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    that doesn’t make it not circular because smart people also made a circular argument
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  10. #670
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    that doesn’t make it not circular because smart people also made a circular argument
    You have it backwards. Infallibility is a circular argument.

    Sam Young is a terrible example. Totally different dynamic.

    Ditto for Denver Snuffer. Also, he is a fundamentalist. He believes that JS was infallible.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  11. #671

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Of course. I totally understand putting this in the evidence against column. If I didn't think it was a difficult item, why would I argue that it is a contradiction that requires struggle and dealing with cognitive dissonance?

    Polygamy and the priesthood ban have always been the two toughest issues for me.
    Where does discrimination against homosexuals rank on your toughest issues scale? Just curious.

    For me, I could deal with racist leaders. It was obvious and never an issue. I could deal with polygamy and historical misogny. All of these were products of the time period.

    The deal breaker for me was the current treatment of women and lgbtq. Can't find a justification for it in the framework of being God's church.

    Also beer. That was a huge deal breaker.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  12. #672
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Where does discrimination against homosexuals rank on your toughest issues scale? Just curious.

    For me, I could deal with racist leaders. It was obvious and never an issue. I could deal with polygamy and historical misogny. All of these were products of the time period.

    The deal breaker for me was the current treatment of women and lgbtq. Can't find a justification for it in the framework of being God's church.

    Also beer. That was a huge deal breaker.
    whats the difference between historical and current mis-treatment of women? Isnt it all a continuum?
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    whats the difference between historical and current mis-treatment of women? Isnt it all a continuum?
    Yeah, what? Prior leaders were allowed to be a product of their time period, but current leaders have to at the vanguard?
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  14. #674

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    IF we can just throw out something the church called doctrine to leaders make mistakes, how is that different from any other church? Basically anything about the church or its teachings can change at any moment then, and whatever it was before was a mistake.

    basically, what other doctrine could just be a mistake?
    Polygamy.

    Repeal section 132.

  15. #675
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Or Brigham Young. Or Charles Penrose. Or J. Reuben Clark.

    "We can tell when the speakers are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost' only when we, ourselves are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost.' In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak." -- J. Reuben Clark, 1954

    "And none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God... would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves." -- Charles Penrose, 1852

    "What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." -- BY (JD 9:150)

    "I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord." -- BY, JD 1:312
    Those guys were obviously not moved upon by the Holy Ghost when they said those things.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  16. #676

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    This book is still on my list to order and read.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/019067413X...v_ov_lig_dp_it

    The author's statement here is also a good read:

    https://www.fairmormon.org/testimoni...s/w-paul-reeve

    This is the author who provided the original draft for the church approved essay on race and the priesthood. There are some interviews on the web where he affirms this.

  17. #677

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    This book is still on my list to order and read.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/019067413X...v_ov_lig_dp_it

    The author's statement here is also a good read:

    https://www.fairmormon.org/testimoni...s/w-paul-reeve

    This is the author who provided the original draft for the church approved essay on race and the priesthood. There are some interviews on the web where he affirms this.
    He makes some good points, one of which I always keep in the back of my mind:

    History is incomplete. It can never fully capture the hearts and minds of past peoples or completely recreate past events.

  18. #678

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    He makes some good points, one of which I always keep in the back of my mind:
    History is incomplete. It can never fully capture the hearts and minds of past peoples or completely recreate past events.
    Imagine future historians using Twitter as an original source. Really, think long and hard about that. Then apply what you have learned to history as you know it.

  19. #679

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Imagine future historians using Twitter as an original source. Really, think long and hard about that. Then apply what you have learned to history as you know it.
    Or CougarStadium, or worse, CougarBored.

  20. #680
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    This book is still on my list to order and read.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/019067413X...v_ov_lig_dp_it

    The author's statement here is also a good read:

    https://www.fairmormon.org/testimoni...s/w-paul-reeve

    This is the author who provided the original draft for the church approved essay on race and the priesthood. There are some interviews on the web where he affirms this.
    That essay in the second link is really good. Thanks.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  21. #681

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    That essay in the second link is really good. Thanks.
    Here's the interview where he talks about his involvement with the essay (and other things of interest).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcNtNHqRluA

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