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Thread: John Dehlin is thinking about bringing Mormon Stories back

  1. #601
    Senior Member Clark Addison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelBlue View Post
    This link came across my Facebook feed yesterday. Not a MoSto guy but these letters are fascinating, and in the end pretty disturbing. I had never heard of Dr. Lowry Nelson but I have a lot of respect for him after reading these letters. Please note: this link takes you to photos of several letters from a collection at USU. They are presented without commentary.

    http://mormonstories.wpengine.com/ot...y_Exchange.pdf
    That was an interesting read. Thanks for posting.

  2. #602
    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    Yes thank you that was interesting. I was surprised that someone who was clearly well informed wasnt aware in 1947 of an official doctrine or position of the church about black participation. I know too little about the history of the priesthood ban.

  3. #603
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    Yes thank you that was interesting. I was surprised that someone who was clearly well informed wasnt aware in 1947 of an official doctrine or position of the church about black participation. I know too little about the history of the priesthood ban.
    I took that he understood it was the position of the church but he recoiled at the idea that it was settled doctrine. It almost sounds like he was doing an early draft of the current church essay on the topic.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  4. #604
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    I took that he understood it was the position of the church but he recoiled at the idea that it was settled doctrine. It almost sounds like he was doing an early draft of the current church essay on the topic.
    That’s how I read it as well. I interesting that it was still doctrine in 1947 and not policy. I guess it didn’t change to a policy until DoMs term as president. Also interesting to see the prophet make doctrinal claims (privileges here depended on our faithfulness in the preearth life) that were outright rebuked recently (as well as in 1978) by the church.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  5. #605
    Local Character clackamascoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    That’s how I read it as well. I interesting that it was still doctrine in 1947 and not policy. I guess it didn’t change to a policy until DoMs term as president. Also interesting to see the prophet make doctrinal claims (privileges here depended on our faithfulness in the preearth life) that were outright rebuked recently (as well as in 1978) by the church.
    Makes you wonder what the church will look like when our grand kids will be our age. The church is a glacier... but it does move... and melts a little over time.

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  6. #606

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    I hadnt heard of that letter before. how does one read that and conclude anything other than the church was racist, and either god is racist or the church isnt directed by god?

    I dont get it.

  7. #607
    Suomalainen New Mexican Disaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    I hadnt heard of that letter before. how does one read that and conclude anything other than the church was racist, and either god is racist or the church isnt directed by god?

    I dont get it.
    They don't. The Church was racist.

  8. #608

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    guys you just don’t get it. this is a letter signed by the first presidency explicitly in their capacity as such, but they were speaking as men! not as divinely called and set apart mouthpieces of god. duh!
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Oh boy. Such nuance.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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  10. #610
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    There was a case very similar to this described in the DOM bio by Greg Prince. Back in the 50's there was a MP in the Caribbean (DR?) who wrote to SLC and said that they had been converting and ordaining lots of black converts but someone told him that we don't ordain blacks and he had never heard of such a thing and couldn't believe it so he wrote to church HQ to debunk it. The FP wrote back and told him to knock it off. Curse of Cain, yada yada. The really interesting thing to me was that a guy could be a MP and not know about it. It goes to show that the church was mainly a regional organization at the time in a lilly white part of America so it didn't become a widely known or discussed thing until the church ramped up missionary efforts and until the civil rights movement.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  11. #611
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Mexican Disaster View Post
    They don't. The Church was racist.
    Yep. By the very definition of the word, the church was racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    guys you just don’t get it. this is a letter signed by the first presidency explicitly in their capacity as such, but they were speaking as men! not as divinely called and set apart mouthpieces of god. duh!
    I think the correct apologetic take would be to say this was a letter directed to a specific person and not the church as a whole.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  12. #612

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Mexican Disaster View Post
    They don't. The Church was racist.
    i think his question was how does one conclude they aren't racist AND god is racist or the church isn't directed by god. that the church was/is racist is obvious, but then, according to maximus, you have to choose one of the other two options listed.
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  13. #613
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    i think his question was how does one conclude they aren't racist AND god is racist or the church isn't directed by god. that the church was/is racist is obvious, but then, according to maximus, you have to choose one of the other two options listed.
    I think a true believer should just point out that the OT, NT, D&C are full of God’s followers, including the Prophets, messing up big time and going against God’s will.

    Clearly the policy that was in fact “doctrine” was racist and wrong and a horrible mistake but I don’t see why a true believer has to conclude that the Church isn’t led by God. God works with and through extremely fallible screw-ups.

    Right now God is working through homophobic leaders.

  14. #614

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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    I think a true believer should just point out that the OT, NT, D&C are full of God’s followers, including the Prophets, messing up big time and going against God’s will.

    Clearly the policy that was in fact “doctrine” was racist and wrong and a horrible mistake but I don’t see why a true believer has to conclude that the Church isn’t led by God. God works with and through extremely fallible screw-ups.

    Right now God is working through homophobic leaders.
    i mean, if they are ignoring him, simply disobeying him or not including him in their decisions, i think it would be fair to conclude the church isn't being directed or led by him. rather its being led by them.

    (edit) i now see you were likely being facetious. i can be pretty dumb at times.
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  15. #615
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    Makes you wonder what the church will look like when our grand kids will be our age. The church is a glacier... but it does move... and melts a little over time.
    One answer to this is too obvious. Eventually all married people will be treated the same in the eyes of the Church regardless of whether they are married to a person of the same gender or opposite gender.

    There will be increasing social pressure and perhaps political pressure and then there will be a revelation.

  16. #616
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    i mean, if they are ignoring him, simply disobeying him or not including him in their decisions, i think it would be fair to conclude the church isn't being directed or led by him. rather its being led by them.

    (edit) i now see you were likely being facetious. i can be pretty dumb at times.
    Not being facetious. Church leaders are fallible and the racist stuff didn’t come from God. That doesn’t seem edgy or controversial for even a very ortho mo, just similar to what happens in the scriptures all the time.

  17. #617
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    i mean, if they are ignoring him, simply disobeying him or not including him in their decisions, i think it would be fair to conclude the church isn't being directed or led by him. rather its being led by them.

    (edit) i now see you were likely being facetious. i can be pretty dumb at times.
    I don’t think that is a fair conclusion.

    Always interesting to me how we are naturally drawn to black and white thinking.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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  18. #618

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I don’t think that is a fair conclusion.

    Always interesting to me how we are naturally drawn to black and white thinking.
    I am curious what your conclusion is.

  19. #619
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    I am curious what your conclusion is.
    Likely something like this:

    Mormons and their leadership were fairly racist back in the mid-1800s, leading to the policy/doctrine. The policy/doctrine became imbedded in Mormon practice/lore over time as Mormons remained isolated in the Mormon Corridor and didn't regularly face racial issues (when in came to African Americans; oddly, Mormons were very racially progressive in establishing local leadership in the Pacific). Nobody gave it much thought. Then The Church started expanding into Latin America (particularly Brazil) and groups in Africa started forming around Mormon belief, which forced The Church to rethink the policy/doctrine. SWK ponders and discusses with the brethren, decides on a course of action, then takes it to The Lord. Voila!
    Last edited by myboynoah; 09-17-2018 at 08:24 AM.
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  20. #620

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I don’t think that is a fair conclusion.

    Always interesting to me how we are naturally drawn to black and white thinking.
    Sometimes, there are only a couple of options to consider. The 'black and white' accusation can also be a fallacy. In the context of the belief of a church that is divinely guided (even the 'on again, off again' model that Creekster proposes), are there other viable opinions? The position that good men are susceptible to societal influences but are still able to be inspired by God, in his own due time, is pretty nuanced. The other option is that church leaders have a direct continuous revelatory line with God does lead to the position that god had racist views until recently. That can be nuanced a number of different ways which have been hashed out before; the church or even the leaders weren't ready for the change, the political climate wasn't ready, etc. etc.

    Again, there may be other options out there to promote. But in the context that the church places on revelation and doctrine, there are only a couple that are allowed to remain. Those positions can still be expanded to include non-traditional beliefs. I don't see that as black and white.

  21. #621
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    I am curious what your conclusion is.
    Sure. This is what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    I hadnt heard of that letter before. how does one read that and conclude anything other than the church was racist, and either god is racist or the church isnt directed by god?

    I dont get it.
    You are promoting two extreme positions there. Either God is racist, or God would not allow church leaders ever to do anything racist. Why stop there? Why not conclude that if God allowed slavery to happen (thus impacting far more people than the priesthood ban ever impacted), then God must be racist. Right? Anyone who pursues a life of faith has to come to terms with human suffering and imperfection. You have to accept that God allows bad things to happen for reasons we may not understand.

    I think there are very few people in the church, even staunch ortho-mos, who would disagree with the statement: "church leaders are not perfect". Many people have even come to terms with the idea that BY had racist tendencies. But when we read letters like the ones listed above and see the gruesome details of what that statement really means in practice, we recoil.

    I believe in the following:

    1) God directs the church
    2) God allows leaders to be human and make mistakes. Sometimes big mistakes.

    Those two statements are compatible. Clearly "God directs the church" does NOT mean that leaders are robots or avatars for God and everything they do and every policy/doctrine they promote will be objectively viewed as correct by all future generations. It means that God inspires and motivates the church leaders and they do wonderful things and provide wonderful service and generally do the best they can but revelation is a messy and imperfect process and for reasons that are sometimes hard to understand, they sometimes screw up. And we should love them and forgive them just like we are commanded to love and forgive anyone else.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  22. #622
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Sometimes, there are only a couple of options to consider. The 'black and white' accusation can also be a fallacy. In the context of the belief of a church that is divinely guided (even the 'on again, off again' model that Creekster proposes), are there other viable opinions? The position that good men are susceptible to societal influences but are still able to be inspired by God, in his own due time, is pretty nuanced. The other option is that church leaders have a direct continuous revelatory line with God does lead to the position that god had racist views until recently. That can be nuanced a number of different ways which have been hashed out before; the church or even the leaders weren't ready for the change, the political climate wasn't ready, etc. etc.

    Again, there may be other options out there to promote. But in the context that the church places on revelation and doctrine, there are only a couple that are allowed to remain. Those positions can still be expanded to include non-traditional beliefs. I don't see that as black and white.
    Appeal to ortho-mo fallacy.

    And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

    I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

    In the title page of the Book of Mormon we read, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.”6

    This is the way it has always been and will be until the perfect day when Christ Himself reigns personally upon the earth.

    --- Deiter F. Uchtdorf
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  23. #623

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Appeal to ortho-mo fallacy.
    Gotta stay to my online rep!

    But if the ortho-mo fallacy is generally accepted in the church, is it a fallacy???

  24. #624
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Gotta stay to my online rep!

    But if the ortho-mo fallacy is generally accepted in the church, is it a fallacy???
    Whoa. You just layered an ortho-mo fallacy on top of an ortho-mo fallacy. I am impressed!
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  25. #625

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Gotta stay to my online rep!

    But if the ortho-mo fallacy is generally accepted in the church, is it a fallacy???

    Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

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  26. #626

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Whoa. You just layered an ortho-mo fallacy on top of an ortho-mo fallacy. I am impressed!
    LOL. I'll take the arrows for this one (I'm altruistic like that ). But this recent discussion has revealed others who are susceptible to the ortho-mo fallacy, such as it is.

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  27. #627

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donuthole View Post
    I want one!

    When I go to restaurants, I typically order by pictures. If I see something that looks good, I can't get it out of my head. It goes along with my lack of impulse control.

  28. #628
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    I want one!

    When I go to restaurants, I typically order by pictures. If I see something that looks good, I can't get it out of my head. It goes along with my lack of impulse control.
    Yeah, I am embarrassed to admit that I want one.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  29. #629

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yeah, I am embarrassed to admit that I want one.
    Some character flaws you just have to embrace. Pick your battles, and embrace your surrenders.

  30. #630
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Is it an all-beef kosher dog?
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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