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Thread: A Mormon Girl from Idaho - speaking at Harvard

  1. #1
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Default A Mormon Girl from Idaho - speaking at Harvard

    Sally Quinn ran a forum discussion with Harvard students representing Islam, Mormonism, Judaism, Presbyterianism and Buddhism. Background here. Rachel Esplin of Southeastern Idaho represented the Mormon point of view. I think she did a pretty good job:

    [YOUTUBE]<object width="400" height="225"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2120177&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=&amp;fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2120177&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=&amp;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="225"></embed></object><br /><a href="http://vimeo.com/2120177">Day of Faith: Personal Quests for a Purpose - 3. Rachel Esplin</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user481977">Harvard Hillel</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.[/YOUTUBE]

    Here's a link to the video, since the code doesn't seem to be working, not being YouTube.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 12-30-2008 at 06:21 PM. Reason: code issues

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    BYU Delenda Est Mormon Red Death's Avatar
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    She's cute. All American should go to Law School there and date her.
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    She's cute. All American should go to Law School there and date her.
    Hardly. She openly admits to not studying her scriptures every day.

    AA, this girl is bad news!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    Hardly. She openly admits to not studying her scriptures every day.

    AA, this girl is bad news!
    She just said that to make the gentiles comfortable ... it's called lying for the Lord my friend.

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    Known Heterosexual RC Vikings's Avatar
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    She did a great job of representing S.E. Idaho and the church.

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    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Sally Quinn ran a forum discussion with Harvard students representing Islam, Mormonism, Judaism, Presbyterianism and Buddhism. Background here. Rachel Esplin of Southeastern Idaho represented the Mormon point of view. I think she did a pretty good job:

    [YOUTUBE]<object width="400" height="225"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2120177&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=&amp;fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2120177&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=&amp;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="225"></embed></object><br /><a href="http://vimeo.com/2120177">Day of Faith: Personal Quests for a Purpose - 3. Rachel Esplin</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user481977">Harvard Hillel</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.[/YOUTUBE]

    Here's a link to the video, since the code doesn't seem to be working, not being YouTube.
    SE Idaho mormon farmgirls are smoking hot! And they are able to pull it off by taking President Hinkley's opinion on earings to the extreme!

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    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC Vikings View Post
    She did a great job of representing S.E. Idaho and the church.
    The 208 baby!

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    I'd hit that.

    I dunno about the Jewish guy staring at her throughout the interview, though. Creepy.

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    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting that, LA Ute.

    She did a fantastic job.

    Two thoughts I had:
    1. I'm not a big fan of the "Either it happened the way Joseph Smith said it did or the Church is a sham" line of reasoning. I think some members need a little more flexibility in their interpretation of Joseph Smith to account for things like the Facsimiles in the D&C.

    2. I personally wouldn't call missions "optional" for women. Doesn't everybody have the option whether or not to serve a mission?

    But overall I thought she came across as thoughtful and smart. Good thing she's not planning on the mission because she would be miserable having to spend time around by a bunch of barely literate 19- and 20-year olds with no college under their belt.
    Last edited by CardiacCoug; 12-31-2008 at 06:48 AM.

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    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    I'd hit that.

    I dunno about the Jewish guy staring at her throughout the interview, though. Creepy.
    Good call. I definitely wouldn't hit that Jewish guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    Thanks for posting that, LA Ute.

    She did a fantastic job.

    Two thoughts I had:
    1. I'm not a big fan of the "Either it happened the way Joseph Smith said it did or the Church is a sham" line of reasoning. I think some members need a little more flexibility in their interpretation of Joseph Smith to account for things like the Facsimiles in the D&C.

    2. I personally wouldn't call missions "optional" for women. Doesn't everybody have the option whether or not to serve a mission?

    But overall I thought she came across as thoughtful and smart. Good thing she's not planning on the mission because she would be miserable having to spend time around by a bunch of barely literate 19- and 20-year olds with no college under their belt.
    Agree on all three of those points. She kind of caught herself on the "optional" thing--you could tell that same thought went through her head--but I think she handled it well. I really feel sorry for sister missionaries. Some of them are crazy, but the few normal ones really have to put up with a lot, between their crazy companions and 19 yo gunner DL's.

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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    Thanks for posting that, LA Ute.

    She did a fantastic job.

    Two thoughts I had:
    1. I'm not a big fan of the "Either it happened the way Joseph Smith said it did or the Church is a sham" line of reasoning. I think some members need a little more flexibility in their interpretation of Joseph Smith to account for things like the Facsimiles in the D&C.

    2. I personally wouldn't call missions "optional" for women. Doesn't everybody have the option whether or not to serve a mission?

    But overall I thought she came across as thoughtful and smart. Good thing she's not planning on the mission because she would be miserable having to spend time around by a bunch of barely literate 19- and 20-year olds with no college under their belt.
    My thoughts on your thoughts....

    The "either it happened this way or else" quote......this girl has been doing her reading. And the second she said the aforementioned quote, I knew she was basically paraphrasing LeGrand Richards in his preface to Marvelous Work and a Wonder. Except she strategically chose to use "sham" instead of the original "you Mormons are all ignoramuses" language.

    The "optional missions" term has always bugged me, too. Missions are optional for everyone. there is absolutely no penalty doled out by the Church for not serving a mission. There may be other things working to one's detriment, but the Church doesn't ding you for it. My honest impression at that moment was that she wanted to state that, "hey, I might find someone and get married," but given the crowd in the room, such a statement would have gone over like a ton of bricks. Let me add that my impression would be that she would continue to go to school while married, but I just kept thinking that she was dancing around the marriage thing. For someone as versed as she is in the LDS way of life, for her to leave out marriage as part of LDS culture was deliberate....it is a very integral part of life for young LDS people.

    I did get a kick out of how many times she did product placement for Harvard:

    "Well, I USED to think that way BEFORE I came to Harvard!"

    "It has been SO awesome being here at Harvard!"

    "Everyone at Harvard is so open minded!"

    I wonder if she was paid to drop the H-bomb so many times?

    I honestly think that she did an excellent job. Is it common practice to prep panelists with exact questions? If she did all of this ad hoc, then I would say that she answered from the hip more effectively than probably 95% of all LDS members. The other 5% would be career Church leaders, PR folk, hard-core scriptorians, and people like me that already own Vol 1 of Joseph Smith Papers.
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    Never once baby snatched landpoke's Avatar
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    She looks like she's baked out of her gourd.
    There's no such thing as luck, only drunken invincibility. Make it happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    My thoughts on your thoughts....

    The "either it happened this way or else" quote......this girl has been doing her reading. And the second she said the aforementioned quote, I knew she was basically paraphrasing LeGrand Richards in his preface to Marvelous Work and a Wonder. Except she strategically chose to use "sham" instead of the original "you Mormons are all ignoramuses" language.
    You might be right but I am not sure that many of the younger generation are reading Marvelous Work and a Wonder even among Mormon Harvard undergrads (its not even in the Missionary library anymore). President Hinckley used phrases like that often enough (I think he is reflecting Legrand Richards sentiment so indirectly you are almost surely right). For example,

    That is the way I feel about it. Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.

    http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vg...____&hideNav=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    1. I'm not a big fan of the "Either it happened the way Joseph Smith said it did or the Church is a sham" line of reasoning. I think some members need a little more flexibility in their interpretation of Joseph Smith to account for things like the Facsimiles in the D&C.
    I agree, though I think is something that at least I only hear from leadership rather than membership. We don't officially believe in infallibility but when you say that either it is all true or none of it is true infallibility is the doctrine you are articulating. And you are right, that is a hurdle not even the true church can clear. Even Mormon says in the title page of the BOM:

    And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.
    That, in my opinion, is the true doctrine, rather than "all true or none true."

  16. #16

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    My wife and I watched all the clips from this forum last night. The dialouge was fascinating.

    Perhaps a biased opinion, but the Mormon girl had the best showing of all the faiths represented. The Jewish guy was ok after he was done being a clown. The others didnt really impress.

    I liked how she took the time to give the background of each question before proceeding to answer. She also did a great job of answering the temple questions, given the fact that she is 20 and likely unendowed. The girl was sharp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    I agree, though I think is something that at least I only hear from leadership rather than membership. We don't officially believe in infallibility but when you say that either it is all true or none of it is true infallibility is the doctrine you are articulating. And you are right, that is a hurdle not even the true church can clear. Even Mormon says in the title page of the BOM:



    That, in my opinion, is the true doctrine, rather than "all true or none true."
    UD, that strikes me as a bit unfair ... Isn't she refering to the basic propositions not whether everything in the BOM or Mormon canon in general is correct. I'm sure she believes in the fallibility of prophets and the BOM. I don't think most people who make the truth or shame point would disagree with what you just said. Or am I misunderstanding?

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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pelagius View Post
    You might be right but I am not sure that many of the younger generation are reading Marvelous Work and a Wonder even among Mormon Harvard undergrads (its not even in the Missionary library anymore). President Hinckley used phrases like that often enough (I think he is reflecting Legrand Richards sentiment so indirectly you are almost surely right). For example,
    Wow, you are right. That quote is strikingly similar in sentiment to that of LGR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pelagius View Post
    UD, that strikes me as a bit unfair ... Isn't she refering to the basic propositions not whether everything in the BOM or Mormon canon in general is correct. I'm sure she believes in the fallibility of prophets and the BOM. I don't think most people who make the truth or shame point would disagree with what you just said. Or am I misunderstanding?
    I don't know if it is because I didn't listen to her. I was responding to Cardiac's characterization of a particular line of reasoning that is familiar to us all, I think. My argument was directed purely to what is sometimes said, that is, either it is all true or none of it is. I don't think most people believe that either and I certainly don't for the reason I stated. Yet, it is something we hear from our oracles from time to time. It is those statements I am directing my argument to.

    Does that clarify?

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    I don't know if it is because I didn't listen to her. I was responding to Cardiac's characterization of a particular line of reasoning that is familiar to us all, I think. My argument was directed purely to what is sometimes said, that is, either it is all true or none of it is. I don't think most people believe that either and I certainly don't for the reason I stated. Yet, it is something we hear from our oracles from time to time. It is those statements I am directing my argument to.

    Does that clarify?
    I think but one follow-up: Would you put that the Pres Hinckley quote (that I mentioned early) in that line of reasoning or do you see his quote as more limited?

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    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colly Wolly View Post
    My wife and I watched all the clips from this forum last night. The dialouge was fascinating.

    Perhaps a biased opinion, but the Mormon girl had the best showing of all the faiths represented. The Jewish guy was ok after he was done being a clown. The others didnt really impress.

    I liked how she took the time to give the background of each question before proceeding to answer. She also did a great job of answering the temple questions, given the fact that she is 20 and likely unendowed. The girl was sharp.
    How could you tell she was unnedowed? The table came up to her clavicle and the lighting made it difficult to evaluate the extent to which she is endowed....but using SE Idaho farmgirls as a fram of reference....ROWRRR!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pelagius View Post
    I think but one follow-up: Would you put that the Pres Hinckley quote (that I mentioned early) in that line of reasoning or do you see his quote as more limited?
    I think he is saying something much more narrow: that there was either a first vision as Joseph said or the whole work is a fraud. For me personally, that overstates things because I don't believe the foundational claims of other churches but would not characterize almost any of them as "frauds." They are organizations that by and large do good and are good.

    Still, I do appreciate the point he made which is that (reading the previous paragraph before that line) we are a lot of things that others are: a social net work, a mutual aid society, etc., but we are also something unique: the church directed by the Lord.

    Having now listened to her my recollection is that she used the phrase, roughly quoting GBH, "either it happened or it didn't" and the antecedent "it" being referred to was her brief recitation of Joseph calling upon God, having a vision, then translating the BOM. I don't really have any problem with that statement. Either the foundational claims are authentic or they are the product of a fertile imagination. And when it is stated narrowly, again I don't disagree. But I also agree with what I think Cardiac was saying, which is that we need to be have the some flexibility in our understanding of Joseph or else there is risk of succumbing to throwing the baby out with some of our historical and doctrinal bath water.

    EDIT: I also wanted to note that I had two major impressions about this girl (1) she is very bright and represented her beliefs, as she understands them, very well (2) she lacks the depth that one who has (a) engaged in temple worship and (b) made a study of our doctrine and history would have. That is not really a critique as much as a caveat.
    Last edited by UtahDan; 12-31-2008 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    I think he is saying something much more narrow: that there was either a first vision as Joseph said or the whole work is a fraud. For me personally, that overstates things because I don't believe the foundational claims of other churches but would not characterize almost any of them as "frauds." They are organizations that by and large do good and are good.

    Still, I do appreciate the point he made which is that (reading the previous paragraph before that line) we are a lot of things that others are: a social net work, a mutual aid society, etc., but we are also something unique: the church directed by the Lord.

    Having now listened to her my recollection is that she used the phrase, roughly quoting GBH, "either it happened or it didn't" and the antecedent "it" being referred to was her brief recitation of Joseph calling upon God, having a vision, then translating the BOM. I don't really have any problem with that statement. Either the foundational claims are authentic or they are the product of a fertile imagination. And when it is stated narrowly, again I don't disagree. But I also agree with what I think Cardiac was saying, which is that we need to be have the some flexibility in our understanding of Joseph or else there is risk of succumbing to throwing the baby out with some of our historical and doctrinal bath water.

    EDIT: I also wanted to note that I had two major impressions about this girl (1) she is very bright and represented her beliefs, as she understands them, very well (2) she lacks the depth that one who has (a) engaged in temple worship and (b) made a study of our doctrine and history would have. That is not really a critique as much as a caveat.
    Nicely put and I largely agree.

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    Joycelyn Elders Supporter SoonerCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    My thoughts on your thoughts....

    The "either it happened this way or else" quote......this girl has been doing her reading. And the second she said the aforementioned quote, I knew she was basically paraphrasing LeGrand Richards in his preface to Marvelous Work and a Wonder. Except she strategically chose to use "sham" instead of the original "you Mormons are all ignoramuses" language.
    I'm firmly in the "I don't care what way it happened" camp. I have no way of knowing what happened in the sacred grove, although I must admit I felt a slight chill when I visited the grove at age 13. And even if I thought I knew what happened there, it wouldn't change the fact that I think being a Mormon is sort of gnarly. Besides me and Cardiac, how many people in this country can say that their great grandpa was married to two sisters at the same time?

    I have good memories of primary songs, philosophizing with my family about our religion, and hearing goofy sacrament talks. There's more, but that's all the testimony I need. I also have good memories of sneaking into the Church at 1 AM with my friends to play basketball.

    It's sort of like debating the origins of humanity. At this point in history, it's pretty obvious where humans came from, but people can believe what they want to believe. The most important thing is that we're already here. Mormonism is here, and I mostly find it enjoyable, so that's good enough for me.

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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    I'm firmly in the "I don't care what way it happened" camp. I have no way of knowing what happened in the sacred grove, although I must admit I felt a slight chill when I visited the grove at age 13. And even if I thought I knew what happened there, it wouldn't change the fact that I think being a Mormon is sort of gnarly. Besides me and Cardiac, how many people in this country can say that their great grandpa was married to two sisters at the same time?

    I have good memories of primary songs, philosophizing with my family about our religion, and hearing goofy sacrament talks. There's more, but that's all the testimony I need. I also have good memories of sneaking into the Church at 1 AM with my friends to play basketball.

    It's sort of like debating the origins of humanity. At this point in history, it's pretty obvious where humans came from, but people can believe what they want to believe. The most important thing is that we're already here. Mormonism is here, and I mostly find it enjoyable, so that's good enough for me.
    Bump.
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    Local Character clackamascoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Bump.
    Tax season is over... now you've got too much time on your hands.

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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    Tax season is over... now you've got too much time on your hands.
    Good call. This is my 67th post since the tax deadline 77 days ago.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    I'm firmly in the "I don't care what way it happened" camp. I have no way of knowing what happened in the sacred grove, although I must admit I felt a slight chill when I visited the grove at age 13. And even if I thought I knew what happened there, it wouldn't change the fact that I think being a Mormon is sort of gnarly. [B]Besides me and Cardiac, how many people in this country can say that their great grandpa was married to two sisters at the same time?[B]

    I have good memories of primary songs, philosophizing with my family about our religion, and hearing goofy sacrament talks. There's more, but that's all the testimony I need. I also have good memories of sneaking into the Church at 1 AM with my friends to play basketball.

    It's sort of like debating the origins of humanity. At this point in history, it's pretty obvious where humans came from, but people can believe what they want to believe. The most important thing is that we're already here. Mormonism is here, and I mostly find it enjoyable, so that's good enough for me.
    My guess is you have an above average amount of 2nd cousins who can say the same thing.

    So I wasnt a student of sooner's posts back in aught eight. WTF happened to sour him so? This post was after prop 8 so it can't be that.

  29. #29
    it's all a blur mtnbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    My guess is you have an above average amount of 2nd cousins who can say the same thing.
    Sooner posted before I found the board, so I hadn't seen this before. Not a great grandpa, but my great great grandpa was married to 3 sisters at the same time.

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    Local Character clackamascoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Good call. This is my 67th post since the tax deadline 77 days ago.
    You made me want to check out how many I've had since then... when I got to 100 and still in the month of June i quit.

    You need to post more...

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