A Mormon Girl from Idaho - speaking at Harvard

[Colly Wolly]

My wife and I watched all the clips from this forum last night. The dialouge was fascinating.

Perhaps a biased opinion, but the Mormon girl had the best showing of all the faiths represented. The Jewish guy was ok after he was done being a clown. The others didnt really impress.

I liked how she took the time to give the background of each question before proceeding to answer. She also did a great job of answering the temple questions, given the fact that she is 20 and likely unendowed. The girl was sharp.

[pelagius]

I agree, though I think is something that at least I only hear from leadership rather than membership. We don't officially believe in infallibility but when you say that either it is all true or none of it is true infallibility is the doctrine you are articulating. And you are right, that is a hurdle not even the true church can clear. Even Mormon says in the title page of the BOM:



That, in my opinion, is the true doctrine, rather than "all true or none true."

UD, that strikes me as a bit unfair ... Isn't she refering to the basic propositions not whether everything in the BOM or Mormon canon in general is correct. I'm sure she believes in the fallibility of prophets and the BOM. I don't think most people who make the truth or shame point would disagree with what you just said. Or am I misunderstanding?

[TripletDaddy]

You might be right but I am not sure that many of the younger generation are reading Marvelous Work and a Wonder even among Mormon Harvard undergrads (its not even in the Missionary library anymore). President Hinckley used phrases like that often enough (I think he is reflecting Legrand Richards sentiment so indirectly you are almost surely right). For example,

Wow, you are right. That quote is strikingly similar in sentiment to that of LGR.

[UtahDan]

UD, that strikes me as a bit unfair ... Isn't she refering to the basic propositions not whether everything in the BOM or Mormon canon in general is correct. I'm sure she believes in the fallibility of prophets and the BOM. I don't think most people who make the truth or shame point would disagree with what you just said. Or am I misunderstanding?

I don't know if it is because I didn't listen to her. I was responding to Cardiac's characterization of a particular line of reasoning that is familiar to us all, I think. My argument was directed purely to what is sometimes said, that is, either it is all true or none of it is. I don't think most people believe that either and I certainly don't for the reason I stated. Yet, it is something we hear from our oracles from time to time. It is those statements I am directing my argument to.

Does that clarify?

[pelagius]

I don't know if it is because I didn't listen to her. I was responding to Cardiac's characterization of a particular line of reasoning that is familiar to us all, I think. My argument was directed purely to what is sometimes said, that is, either it is all true or none of it is. I don't think most people believe that either and I certainly don't for the reason I stated. Yet, it is something we hear from our oracles from time to time. It is those statements I am directing my argument to.

Does that clarify?

I think but one follow-up: Would you put that the Pres Hinckley quote (that I mentioned early) in that line of reasoning or do you see his quote as more limited?

[Goatnapper'96]

My wife and I watched all the clips from this forum last night. The dialouge was fascinating.

Perhaps a biased opinion, but the Mormon girl had the best showing of all the faiths represented. The Jewish guy was ok after he was done being a clown. The others didnt really impress.

I liked how she took the time to give the background of each question before proceeding to answer. She also did a great job of answering the temple questions, given the fact that she is 20 and likely unendowed. The girl was sharp.

How could you tell she was unnedowed? The table came up to her clavicle and the lighting made it difficult to evaluate the extent to which she is endowed....but using SE Idaho farmgirls as a fram of reference....ROWRRR!

[UtahDan]

I think but one follow-up: Would you put that the Pres Hinckley quote (that I mentioned early) in that line of reasoning or do you see his quote as more limited?

I think he is saying something much more narrow: that there was either a first vision as Joseph said or the whole work is a fraud. For me personally, that overstates things because I don't believe the foundational claims of other churches but would not characterize almost any of them as "frauds." They are organizations that by and large do good and are good.

Still, I do appreciate the point he made which is that (reading the previous paragraph before that line) we are a lot of things that others are: a social net work, a mutual aid society, etc., but we are also something unique: the church directed by the Lord.

Having now listened to her my recollection is that she used the phrase, roughly quoting GBH, "either it happened or it didn't" and the antecedent "it" being referred to was her brief recitation of Joseph calling upon God, having a vision, then translating the BOM. I don't really have any problem with that statement. Either the foundational claims are authentic or they are the product of a fertile imagination. And when it is stated narrowly, again I don't disagree. But I also agree with what I think Cardiac was saying, which is that we need to be have the some flexibility in our understanding of Joseph or else there is risk of succumbing to throwing the baby out with some of our historical and doctrinal bath water.

EDIT: I also wanted to note that I had two major impressions about this girl (1) she is very bright and represented her beliefs, as she understands them, very well (2) she lacks the depth that one who has (a) engaged in temple worship and (b) made a study of our doctrine and history would have. That is not really a critique as much as a caveat.

[pelagius]

I think he is saying something much more narrow: that there was either a first vision as Joseph said or the whole work is a fraud. For me personally, that overstates things because I don't believe the foundational claims of other churches but would not characterize almost any of them as "frauds." They are organizations that by and large do good and are good.

Still, I do appreciate the point he made which is that (reading the previous paragraph before that line) we are a lot of things that others are: a social net work, a mutual aid society, etc., but we are also something unique: the church directed by the Lord.

Having now listened to her my recollection is that she used the phrase, roughly quoting GBH, "either it happened or it didn't" and the antecedent "it" being referred to was her brief recitation of Joseph calling upon God, having a vision, then translating the BOM. I don't really have any problem with that statement. Either the foundational claims are authentic or they are the product of a fertile imagination. And when it is stated narrowly, again I don't disagree. But I also agree with what I think Cardiac was saying, which is that we need to be have the some flexibility in our understanding of Joseph or else there is risk of succumbing to throwing the baby out with some of our historical and doctrinal bath water.

EDIT: I also wanted to note that I had two major impressions about this girl (1) she is very bright and represented her beliefs, as she understands them, very well (2) she lacks the depth that one who has (a) engaged in temple worship and (b) made a study of our doctrine and history would have. That is not really a critique as much as a caveat.

Nicely put and I largely agree.

[SoonerCoug]

My thoughts on your thoughts....

The "either it happened this way or else" quote......this girl has been doing her reading. And the second she said the aforementioned quote, I knew she was basically paraphrasing LeGrand Richards in his preface to Marvelous Work and a Wonder. Except she strategically chose to use "sham" instead of the original "you Mormons are all ignoramuses" language.

I'm firmly in the "I don't care what way it happened" camp. I have no way of knowing what happened in the sacred grove, although I must admit I felt a slight chill when I visited the grove at age 13. And even if I thought I knew what happened there, it wouldn't change the fact that I think being a Mormon is sort of gnarly. Besides me and Cardiac, how many people in this country can say that their great grandpa was married to two sisters at the same time?

I have good memories of primary songs, philosophizing with my family about our religion, and hearing goofy sacrament talks. There's more, but that's all the testimony I need. I also have good memories of sneaking into the Church at 1 AM with my friends to play basketball.

It's sort of like debating the origins of humanity. At this point in history, it's pretty obvious where humans came from, but people can believe what they want to believe. The most important thing is that we're already here. Mormonism is here, and I mostly find it enjoyable, so that's good enough for me.

[Pelado]

I'm firmly in the "I don't care what way it happened" camp. I have no way of knowing what happened in the sacred grove, although I must admit I felt a slight chill when I visited the grove at age 13. And even if I thought I knew what happened there, it wouldn't change the fact that I think being a Mormon is sort of gnarly. Besides me and Cardiac, how many people in this country can say that their great grandpa was married to two sisters at the same time?

I have good memories of primary songs, philosophizing with my family about our religion, and hearing goofy sacrament talks. There's more, but that's all the testimony I need. I also have good memories of sneaking into the Church at 1 AM with my friends to play basketball.

It's sort of like debating the origins of humanity. At this point in history, it's pretty obvious where humans came from, but people can believe what they want to believe. The most important thing is that we're already here. Mormonism is here, and I mostly find it enjoyable, so that's good enough for me.

Bump.

[clackamascoug]

Bump.

Tax season is over... now you've got too much time on your hands.

[Pelado]

Tax season is over... now you've got too much time on your hands.

Good call. This is my 67th post since the tax deadline 77 days ago.

[Omaha 680]

I'm firmly in the "I don't care what way it happened" camp. I have no way of knowing what happened in the sacred grove, although I must admit I felt a slight chill when I visited the grove at age 13. And even if I thought I knew what happened there, it wouldn't change the fact that I think being a Mormon is sort of gnarly. [B]Besides me and Cardiac, how many people in this country can say that their great grandpa was married to two sisters at the same time?[B]

I have good memories of primary songs, philosophizing with my family about our religion, and hearing goofy sacrament talks. There's more, but that's all the testimony I need. I also have good memories of sneaking into the Church at 1 AM with my friends to play basketball.

It's sort of like debating the origins of humanity. At this point in history, it's pretty obvious where humans came from, but people can believe what they want to believe. The most important thing is that we're already here. Mormonism is here, and I mostly find it enjoyable, so that's good enough for me.

My guess is you have an above average amount of 2nd cousins who can say the same thing.

So I wasnt a student of sooner's posts back in aught eight. WTF happened to sour him so? This post was after prop 8 so it can't be that.

[mtnbiker]

My guess is you have an above average amount of 2nd cousins who can say the same thing.

Sooner posted before I found the board, so I hadn't seen this before. Not a great grandpa, but my great great grandpa was married to 3 sisters at the same time.

[clackamascoug]

Good call. This is my 67th post since the tax deadline 77 days ago.

You made me want to check out how many I've had since then... when I got to 100 and still in the month of June i quit.

You need to post more...