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  • On abortion

    Here is an article written by the woman who filmed her own abortion:

    http://www.cosmopolitan.com/advice/h...ed-my-abortion


    Now I am decidedly in the "Pro-Choice" camp basically out of pragmatism and to maximize liberty. Saying that, I find abortion motivated purely by convenience to be a total abomination and I worry that any society who so nonchalantly accepts such actions as not having values that I think will ensure its long term success. While I don't want government to enforce rules against such incredible selfishness, I would feel better if it were at least looked down upon. Now in full disclosure I am a Conservative Mormon who struggled with infertility for the first 6 years of my marriage, so take that for what it is worth. In any case I found the following paragraph from her article really disheartening:


    "I found out I was pregnant in November. I had been working at the clinic for about a year. It was my first pregnancy, and, full disclosure, I hadn't been using any kind of birth control, which is crazy, I know. I’m a sex educator, and I love talking about birth control. Before this experience, hormonal birth control scared me because of complications I’d heard about from friends — gaining weight, depression, etc. So I tracked my ovulation cycle, and I didn’t have any long-term partners. I thought I was OK. But, you know, things happen. I wound up pregnant."


    Essentially it appears to me that her concern about what birth control might do to her bothered her enough that she took no precaution because....she has a backstop of abortion. I remember the days when a left leaning publication made an effort to emphasize that abortion was not about convenience in the examples it would provide. Sometimes you are reminded how much you really are "out of touch."
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
    -DOCTOR Wuap

  • #2
    Originally posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    Here is an article written by the woman who filmed her own abortion:

    http://www.cosmopolitan.com/advice/h...ed-my-abortion


    Now I am decidedly in the "Pro-Choice" camp basically out of pragmatism and to maximize liberty. Saying that, I find abortion motivated purely by convenience to be a total abomination and I worry that any society who so nonchalantly accepts such actions as not having values that I think will ensure its long term success. While I don't want government to enforce rules against such incredible selfishness, I would feel better if it were at least looked down upon. Now in full disclosure I am a Conservative Mormon who struggled with infertility for the first 6 years of my marriage, so take that for what it is worth. In any case I found the following paragraph from her article really disheartening:


    "I found out I was pregnant in November. I had been working at the clinic for about a year. It was my first pregnancy, and, full disclosure, I hadn't been using any kind of birth control, which is crazy, I know. I’m a sex educator, and I love talking about birth control. Before this experience, hormonal birth control scared me because of complications I’d heard about from friends — gaining weight, depression, etc. So I tracked my ovulation cycle, and I didn’t have any long-term partners. I thought I was OK. But, you know, things happen. I wound up pregnant."


    Essentially it appears to me that her concern about what birth control might do to her bothered her enough that she took no precaution because....she has a backstop of abortion. I remember the days when a left leaning publication made an effort to emphasize that abortion was not about convenience in the examples it would provide. Sometimes you are reminded how much you really are "out of touch."
    What I don't understand is why abortion is necessary at all. Haven't people heard of the morning after pill? It seems silly that abortions are desired or necessary at all. People are really very unwise and selfish.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

    Comment


    • #3
      The morning after pill isn't anywhere near 100% effective. There are also the cases where there are severe anticipated healthcare/resource needs that aren't apparent immediately, or the cases of a traumatized rape victim who isn't in the right frame of mind to think immediately to the morning after pill. Really, there are a hundred other scenarios we could point out, ranging from very selfish to not. As a fellow pragmatist, I'm not particularly interested in the government becoming involved in judging those decisions, as I'd prefer to leave them to the person and God. Also on a pragmatic level, an unwanted baby, even (especially?) in those cases of selfishness, is not going to be raised in a healthy loving home, and may end up costing a lot more in the long run.

      Leave it to the individual, educate her thoroughly on both her options and consequences and let her choose. Politicizing the issue too often puts women into the position of political pawn (see Norma McCorvey).
      At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
      -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
        The morning after pill isn't anywhere near 100% effective. There are also the cases where there are severe anticipated healthcare/resource needs that aren't apparent immediately, or the cases of a traumatized rape victim who isn't in the right frame of mind to think immediately to the morning after pill. Really, there are a hundred other scenarios we could point out, ranging from very selfish to not. As a fellow pragmatist, I'm not particularly interested in the government becoming involved in judging those decisions, as I'd prefer to leave them to the person and God. Also on a pragmatic level, an unwanted baby, even (especially?) in those cases of selfishness, is not going to be raised in a healthy loving home, and may end up costing a lot more in the long run.

        Leave it to the individual, educate her thoroughly on both her options and consequences and let her choose. Politicizing the issue too often puts women into the position of political pawn (see Norma McCorvey).
        I agree with you and with Goat in terms of the libertarian concerns. I haven't read the research on the effectiveness of the morning after pill. It seems if it doesn't eliminate the need it should drastically reduce the need.
        "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

        Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

        Comment


        • #5
          How can you avoid guilt in that situation. Same as people advocating for Same Gender marriage. Would people be happier with a so called marriage license. If you read the words of Alma and Samuel the Lamanite will know it is impossible to be happy when you make wrong choices so guilt will be there because you chose to do iniquity no way around it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Topper View Post
            What I don't understand is why abortion is necessary at all. Haven't people heard of the morning after pill? It seems silly that abortions are desired or necessary at all. People are really very unwise and selfish.
            Why is it selfish a month or two after but not the morning after?
            "The mind is not a boomerang. If you throw it too far it will not come back." ~ Tom McGuane

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Non Sequitur View Post
              Why is it selfish a month or two after but not the morning after?
              Maybe selfish is the wrong word but stupid. If you want to be sexually active but you don't use birth control? Use birth control and follow up with the morning after pill.

              Abortion should be rare with today's medical options for birth control.
              "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

              Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

              Comment


              • #8
                There are plenty of women who can't take birth control pills.

                I'm not disagreeing with you that there is some option for most, but you're highlighting one of the problems with this issue--men making reproductive decisions for women. We don't come from a place of experience, which is part of reason we tend much more strongly pro life.
                At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                  There are plenty of women who can't take birth control pills.

                  I'm not disagreeing with you that there is some option for most, but you're highlighting one of the problems with this issue--men making reproductive decisions for women. We don't come from a place of experience, which is part of reason we tend much more strongly pro life.
                  I don't want to make decisions for women. Men should use protection, and women should plan. What is unreasonable about that? If women want to use abortion as their birth control that is their choice even though it seems unwise.
                  "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

                  Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Topper View Post
                    I don't want to make decisions for women. Men should use protection, and women should plan. What is unreasonable about that? If women want to use abortion as their birth control that is their choice even though it seems unwise.
                    We both know that men rarely use protection, particularly in an established relationship. And thus the onus falls on the woman, either to make the man wear a condom or take extra hormones in her body, that come with not insignificant risks. I'm not accusing you of being sexist, just of being naturally and understandably ignorant (like about any man outside of the medical prison) due to inexperience. There's nothing wrong with that, but we shouldn't be making blanket statements about how easy it is to take birth control pills or the morning after pill (which, by the way, makes many women violently ill).

                    In the end, regardless of whether abortion is right or wrong, i just don't think it does anyone any good to force a woman who doesn't want to be a mother to be one.
                    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Even in my moments of unbelief I'm still pro-life. I like the stance the church has taken on the matter, which isn't totally pro-life, but allows for some abortion in instances where it obviously makes sense (rape, incest, health of mother, etc.). I can see if being necessary in other cases, but I think it should be rare, or rarer than rare. Of course, my stance would also require easy access to birth control (of all kinds) as well as a lot of public education about safe sex (including abstinence).

                      There are so many people in the world that can't have children that want to have them. Adoption is a great alternative and one that prevents mothers who don't want to be mothers from having their only option being abortion.
                      "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                        Even in my moments of unbelief I'm still pro-life. I like the stance the church has taken on the matter, which isn't totally pro-life, but allows for some abortion in instances where it obviously makes sense (rape, incest, health of mother, etc.). I can see if being necessary in other cases, but I think it should be rare, or rarer than rare. Of course, my stance would also require easy access to birth control (of all kinds) as well as a lot of public education about safe sex (including abstinence).

                        There are so many people in the world that can't have children that want to have them. Adoption is a great alternative and one that prevents mothers who don't want to be mothers from having their only option being abortion.
                        I have no problem with the church taking a strong moral position on this (and really, it's not a strictly pro-life one). I think abortion in most cases is wrong. My position is completely pragmatic on this.

                        And yes, for white babies of healthy middle to upper class mothers, adoption is a great alternative.
                        At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                        -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I love the society we currently live in.

                          Men and women are responsible for the world heating up, glaciers melting and the oceans rising.

                          Men and women are not responsible for creating a living enitity and then wiping it out.

                          Men and women are responsible to make sure some toad in Nevada doesn't die out.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                            We both know that men rarely use protection, particularly in an established relationship. And thus the onus falls on the woman, either to make the man wear a condom or take extra hormones in her body, that come with not insignificant risks. I'm not accusing you of being sexist, just of being naturally and understandably ignorant (like about any man outside of the medical prison) due to inexperience. There's nothing wrong with that, but we shouldn't be making blanket statements about how easy it is to take birth control pills or the morning after pill (which, by the way, makes many women violently ill).

                            In the end, regardless of whether abortion is right or wrong, i just don't think it does anyone any good to force a woman who doesn't want to be a mother to be one
                            .
                            I agree with the bolded part.

                            However, I can read the statistics on different methods of birth control, and know the percentages for whom the routine methods of birth control work effectively. It is not unreasonable for society to expect the sexes to act responsibly in regards to sexual activity by using the most cost effective and efficacious methods while still retaining the ability to procreate later.
                            Last edited by Topper; 05-13-2014, 07:45 AM.
                            "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

                            Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                              Even in my moments of unbelief I'm still pro-life. I like the stance the church has taken on the matter, which isn't totally pro-life, but allows for some abortion in instances where it obviously makes sense (rape, incest, health of mother, etc.). I can see if being necessary in other cases, but I think it should be rare, or rarer than rare. Of course, my stance would also require easy access to birth control (of all kinds) as well as a lot of public education about safe sex (including abstinence).

                              There are so many people in the world that can't have children that want to have them. Adoption is a great alternative and one that prevents mothers who don't want to be mothers from having their only option being abortion.
                              For healthy, middle class white babies, it is a viable alternative. For others, not so much.

                              It is wrong if you assume there is a God who has stated it is wrong.

                              However, outside of that assumption where the conclusion is assumed within the premises, what is wrong with people deciding if they want to become parents or not, or if a woman wants to bear a child? That is the crux of the matter. I am not trying to open up the Pandora's box, but merely reminding you that the debate is endless about right and wrong on this emotional issue.
                              "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

                              Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

                              Comment

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