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"It's Time to Speak Out Against The 'Mormon Boycott'"

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  • "It's Time to Speak Out Against The 'Mormon Boycott'"

    Well, this post on The American Thinker ought to produce some fun here. (Seattle, come out, come out, wherever you are!)

    The opening paragraph:
    Supporters of gay marriage have reacted with anger at the passage of California Proposition 8, which amended the California state constitution to provide that only marriages that fit the traditional definition (one man, one woman) will be recognized. The resulting protest movement has devolved into anti-Mormon bigotry which has been met with silence by liberal civil rights groups. The anti-Mormon fervor has become so nasty, and is growing at such a pace, that it is time to speak out against the "Mormon boycott."

    The author then goes on to detail a number of anti-mormon activities. I thought the post was quite interesting; I wasn't aware of all the anti-Mormon activity that is planned. I suppose Seattle and a few others here will view all of this with a sort of grim satisfaction (along with a bit of glee), and others will try to be objective but say the Church has this coming and should have known that it would get lots of flak for its pro-Prop 8 activities. A few brave souls will express outrage.

    I'll just pose my favorite question: What if the Orthodox Jewish community had gotten behind Prop 8 in a big way, raised lots of money, and were prominent in grass-roots organizing. Subsitute "Orthodox Jewish" for "Mormon" in the activities and statements chronicled on the American Thinker post. Would you find that acceptable?

    Whattaya think?
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  • #2
    First, much of the conduct of the protesters is genuinely terrible. Sending 'white powder' to various temples should buy the would-be-terrorist some serious jail time, where s/he can consider what such acts of terrorism can do to the social fabric of this country.

    But boycotting, protesting, sign making, and name calling are all par for the course.

    Comment


    • #3
      And personally, I would limit boycotts to known material contributors to Prop 8. Church affiliation alone doesn't justify a boycott. I'm grateful to my many gay friends and family who were patient with me as I resolved my issues with the Mormon church and its homophobia.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, I have a few thoughts. First, I don't see anything going on here that isn't legal, in fact isn't fully protected by the First Amendment. If you brought a lawsuit trying to enjoin encouragement of the listed boycotts I'm sure you'd not only lose but also be sanctioned by the court for bringing a frivolous lawsuit, and I don't say that about many lawsuits.

        Second, LA, with all due respect, and I do respect you a lot, your crack about Orthodox Jews is reprehensible, it's not what I consider to be worthy or even ethical dialogue. (It's the stock in trade of Il Padrino.) If they're involved in this in some way, fine, bring them in and have at it. But to my knowledge, they're not. It's one thing to say that Orthodox Jews believe bad things or have bad values, it's quite another to say they are a coddled class in our society when they've done you no harm.

        In fact, you're wrong about Orthodox Jews being a protected class. An Orthodox Jew couldn't get as close to being president as Romney has--if irreligious folks have anything to say about it--for one thing because Orthodox Jews are creationists and bilblical literalists. To the extent you see me as representing what you're condemning in society, note I have said that teaching your children creationism is to me like circumcizing women, and I include Orthodox Jews in that criticism (on the other hand it's as important to teach the creation myth as the Iliad). Moreover, Orthodox Jews are citicized all the time in intellectual mags for chicanery in Israel. One reason you don't hear more criticism of Orthodox Jews is that they don't get involved as often as Mormons in socially conservative political causes like Proposition 8.

        But there is another reason why Jews and Catholics get more respect than Mormons (that's what you're talking about at bottom). Not so long ago (in the overall scheme of things) there was little more than Catholicism and Judaism in Western civilization and culture, besides some critical and positive influence from Islamic countries, themselves offsprung from Judeo-Christianity. Even Maxwell used the term "Judeo-Christian." "Catholicism" really didn't have the meaning it has today until the protestant reformation. Until Martin Luther, Catholics were Christians. Catholicism or Christianity--if you will--itself was a fusion of Judaism and that Classical element of our civilization that led to secularism (code named "paganism" in Maxwell's speech). Mormonism is seen by secularists (who give Mormonism much thought) as a recent derivative, that rejects some of the better parts of this "Judeo-Christian" tradition referenced by Maxwell.
        When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

        --Jonathan Swift

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
          Second, LA, with all due respect, and I do respect you a lot, your crack about Orthodox Jews is reprehensible, it's not what I consider to be worthy or even ethical dialogue. (It's the stock in trade of Il Padrino.) If they're involved in this in some way, fine, bring them in and have at it. But to my knowledge, they're not. It's one thing to say that Orthodox Jews believe bad things or have bad values, it's quite another to say they are a coddled class in our society when they've done you no harm.
          That was a nice little shot at me, but you completely missed the point LA was making.

          He didn't make any comments about Orthodox Jews. He only asked to consider what would be happening if the Orthodox Jews had been behind Prop 8 the way Mormons did.

          So, read his post again and make an attempt to actually answer his question rather than twist it to your advantage.
          "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill


          "I only know what I hear on the news." - Dear Leader

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
            That was a nice little shot at me, but you completely missed the point LA was making.

            He didn't make any comments about Orthodox Jews. He only asked to consider what would be happening if the Orthodox Jews had been behind Prop 8 the way Mormons did.

            So, read his post again and make an attempt to actually answer his question rather than twist it to your advantage.
            Have you ever heard of a rhetorical question? Do you think they're real questions? Think about why such a question is called rhetorical.
            When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

            --Jonathan Swift

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
              And personally, I would limit boycotts to known material contributors to Prop 8. Church affiliation alone doesn't justify a boycott. I'm grateful to my many gay friends and family who were patient with me as I resolved my issues with the Mormon church and its homophobia.
              What do you mean when you refer to the Church's "homophobia?" Are you really arguing that defining marriage traditionally, as between a man and a woman, is homophobic?
              “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
              ― W.H. Auden


              "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
              -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


              "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
              --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                Second, LA, with all due respect, and I do respect you a lot, your crack about Orthodox Jews is reprehensible, it's not what I consider to be worthy or even ethical dialogue. (It's the stock in trade of Il Padrino.) If they're involved in this in some way, fine, bring them in and have at it. But to my knowledge, they're not. It's one thing to say that Orthodox Jews believe bad things or have bad values, it's quite another to say they are a coddled class in our society when they've done you no harm.
                Counselor, you are too smart for this. I made no "crack" about Orthodox Jews. In fact, the only "crack" involved here may have something to do with what you are smoking! (DISCLAIMER: A bad and fully intended in jest.)

                Seriously, my friend, get real and re-read my post! And for once, answer my question. It's actually a pretty good one, if I do say so myself. Here it is again:
                What if the Orthodox Jewish community had gotten behind Prop 8 in a big way, raised lots of money, and were prominent in grass-roots organizing. Subsitute "Orthodox Jewish" for "Mormon" in the activities and statements chronicled on the American Thinker post. Would you find that acceptable?

                In other words, would a boycott of Orthodox Jewish businesses be acceptable? Would it be acceptable to tell companies with Orthodox Jewish executives that you won't support them because you don't want to put any money in the pocket of an Orthodox Jew? And so on.

                Come on, counselor, you know a defense can be mounted for anything. Defend that.
                Last edited by LA Ute; 12-05-2008, 01:16 PM.
                “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                ― W.H. Auden


                "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                  Counselor, you are too smart for this. I made no "crack" about Orthodox Jews. In fact, the only "crack" involved here may have something to do with what you are smoking! (DISCLAIMER: A bad and fully intended in jest.)

                  Seriously, my friend, get real and re-read my post! And for once, answer my question. It's actually a pretty good one, if I do say so myself. Here it is again:
                  What if the Orthodox Jewish community had gotten behind Prop 8 in a big way, raised lots of money, and were prominent in grass-roots organizing. Subsitute "Orthodox Jewish" for "Mormon" in the activities and statements chronicled on the American Thinker post. Would you find that acceptable?

                  In other words, would a boycott of Orthodox Jewish businesses be acceptable? Would it be acceptable to tell companies with Orthodox Jewish executives that you won't support them because you don't want to put nay money in the pocket of an Orthodox Jew? And so on.

                  Come on, counselor, you know a defense can be mounted for anything. Defend that.
                  I answered your (rhetorical) question. Maybe you were too busy defending your honor to notice. I believe Orthodox Jews would be treated as harshly as Mormons, and they are criticized. YOur reasoning is circular because they likely would not get involved in something like Prop. 8 and that's why they're not being criticized. Do you have evidence they are as institutionally or monolitically and insidiously involved as Mormons? I also explained why Judiasim and Catholicism are more respected than Mormonism.
                  When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                  --Jonathan Swift

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                    Whattaya think?
                    I will take as a given that we do not get the same treatment as other faiths who have been around longer. A more interesting question to me is why that should be.

                    Another way to think about your question is what if we were talking about Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists which are also churches born in America during the 19th century.

                    I think that the suggestion that underlies your question (maybe it doesn't) is that Mormons are treated unfairly because of what we believe. I think that my observation above that other newer churches would receive similar treatment under similar circumstance undercuts that argument.

                    I have said elsewhere that our status as embattled and persecuted is nearly sine qua non in LDS culture, but the truth is that outside of areas where there are a lot of LDS, and even there sometimes, people know very little about us if they know anything at all. What they do know is usually wrong. We are not well known or understood at all. This is what I attribute the disparity in treatment to. I still think that best response on our part is gentle correction rather than scandalized outrage. It is nice to see some other churches coming to our defense, however. That is the best of all worlds.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                      I answered your (rhetorical) question. Maybe you were too busy defending your honor to notice. I believe Orthodox Jews would be treated as harshly as Mormons, and they are criticized. YOur reasoning is circular because they likely would not get involved in something like Prop. 8 and that's why they're not being criticized. Do you have evidence they are as institutionally or monolitically and insidiously involved as Mormons? I also explained why Judiasim and Catholicism are more respected than Mormonism.
                      No, you didn't. Let's try again:

                      Would a boycott of Orthodox Jewish businesses be acceptable? Would it be acceptable to tell companies with Orthodox Jewish executives that you won't support them because you don't want to put any money in the pocket of an Orthodox Jew?

                      Not a very hard set of questions to understand.
                      “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                      ― W.H. Auden


                      "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                      -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                      "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                      --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
                        I still think that best response on our part is gentle correction rather than scandalized outrage. It is nice to see some other churches coming to our defense, however. That is the best of all worlds.
                        I am not aware of much "scandalized outrage," at least as I understand that term, so I don't know what you are referring to. If you are referring to my comments, then I think you need to re-think your definition.

                        I do think intelligent discussion and inquiry is very important. I think people who share Seattle's disdain (and that is putting it mildly) for Mormonism need to be called to account. The same people who chuckle at the retribution being leveled against Mormons would be scandalized if the same activities were directed at Jews or Muslims.

                        As a personal matter, I do not tell religious jokes (except about Mormons, to other Mormons) and I won't laugh at them. To me that's just common decency. In an arena like this, which is really a debate and discussion forum, I want people like Seattle to explain and account for their defense of indecent behavior.
                        “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                        ― W.H. Auden


                        "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                        -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                        "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                        --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                          No, you didn't. Let's try again:

                          Would a boycott of Orthodox Jewish businesses be acceptable? Would it be acceptable to tell companies with Orthodox Jewish executives that you won't support them because you don't want to put any money in the pocket of an Orthodox Jew?

                          Not a very hard set of questions to understand.
                          Your hypo is tortured and unrealistic, but if I suspend belief, and imagine Orthodox Jews going out and prosecuting push polls, conspicously raising and donating money for Prop. 8, I say yes, consequences would be similar, including boycotts and reactions to boycotts. I say similar and not the same because as Dan and I have noted, the older faiths are treated with more respect and I think not unreasonably. Is it unreasonable that Mormons are treated more respectfully than Moonies or Scientologists?
                          When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                          --Jonathan Swift

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                            Your hypo is tortured and unrealistic, but if I suspend belief, and imagine Orthodox Jews going out and prosecuting push polls, conspicously raising and donating money for Prop. 8, I say yes, consequences would be similar, including boycotts and reactions to boycotts. I say similar and not the same because as Dan and I have noted, the older faiths are treated with more respect and I think not unreasonably. Is it unreasonable that Mormons are treated more respectfully than Moonies or Scientologists?
                            I will try yet again:

                            Would a boycott of Orthodox Jewish businesses be acceptable? Would it be acceptable to tell companies with Orthodox Jewish executives that you won't support them because you don't want to put any money in the pocket of an Orthodox Jew?

                            You changed my question. The word is "acceptable." Also, you added facts. Maybe you could just answer the question. Then you might try responding to your own revision to my question, which seems to suggest that if the religious minority's conduct is bad enough, it is acceptable to boycott businesses they own, or businesses who employ their members in high executive positions. Do you really mean that?
                            “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                            ― W.H. Auden


                            "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                            -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                            "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                            --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                              I will try yet again:

                              Would a boycott of Orthodox Jewish businesses be acceptable? Would it be acceptable to tell companies with Orthodox Jewish executives that you won't support them because you don't want to put any money in the pocket of an Orthodox Jew?

                              You changed my question. The word is "acceptable." Also, you added facts. Maybe you could just answer the question. Then you might try responding to your own revision to my question, which seems to suggest that if the religious minority's conduct is bad enough, it is acceptable to boycott businesses they own, or businesses who employ their members in high executive positions. Do you really mean that?
                              Well, you made it easier for me. I don't see things that way, actually. Did you agree with boycotts of South African exports? Do you avoid buying stocks in allegedly non-green companies? Neither of these activities have interested me. I have thought they were counterporductive or nonsense or too much bother. But certainly I think this kind of expression is "acceptable." I'd not want to live in a society where it wasn't.

                              The other day I drove by a bunch of people downtown waving Bibles around, carrying evangelical slogans, and singing. I didn't like their noise or the site of it really, but recognized their right to do that. So, I thought what they were doing was excessive, nonsense and a waste of time, but I felt it was perfectly acceptable.

                              So yes, I think the boycotts are acceptable. It's Consitutionally protected activity. Actually, to use your jargon, I think it's more acceptable than what you did, because I agree with their cause but most emphatically not yours. However, I'm not participating in them.
                              When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                              --Jonathan Swift

                              Comment

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