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SeattleUte
12-03-2008, 01:51 PM
Serious question: Why is BYU sports so provincial? This is not a troll. It's a serious question.

BYU has had stretches of domination or dynasty in both the big DI team sports. You could make a case that BYU's basketball tradition is slightly better than utah's if you ignored post-season play. Utah's rising to BCS heights and stellar bowl and vs. top 25 record gives BYU's football tradition a run.

BYU's football team is 1-20 agaisnt ranked teams, last 21 games. Lavelle Edwards had, to be blunt, a terrible bowl record. In this century BYU has a losing bowl record; BYU underperformed against UCLA last year in the Vegas bowl. BYU's basketball team hasn't won an NCAA playoff game since the early 90's.

What's the matter with BYU? What are the physiological, psycoligical and societal factors that make for BYU's chronic failures on the big stage?

RockyBalboa
12-03-2008, 01:57 PM
It's an excellent question and one that I wish I had an answer for.

In regards to BYU struggling with BCS teams or in big games since Bronco took over, I lay a lot of that at the feet of Robert Anae.

In most of the big games he has been completely outschemed and outcoached by his counterparts, with a stubborn refusal to adjust when it's called for.

That's part of it.

il Padrino Ute
12-03-2008, 01:58 PM
I think a lot of it in bowl games was that Edwards seemed to treat the game as a reward for a good season and didn't treat the bowl game like any other game.

Under McBride, Meyer and now Whittingham, the Utes look at a bowl game as another game that is to be played to win. The reward comes after the win.

TripletDaddy
12-03-2008, 02:02 PM
Serious question: Why is BYU sports so provincial? This is not a troll. It's a serious question.

BYU has had stretches of domination or dynasty in both the big DI team sports. You could make a case that BYU's basketball tradition is slightly better than utah's if you ignored post-season play. Utah's rising to BCS heights and stellar bowl and vs. top 25 record gives BYU's football tradition a run.

BYU's football team is 1-20 agaisnt ranked teams, last 21 games. Lavelle Edwards had, to be blunt, a terrible bowl record. In this century BYU has a losing bowl record; BYU underperformed against UCLA last year in the Vegas bowl. BYU's basketball team hasn't won an NCAA playoff game since the early 90's.

What's the matter with BYU? What are the physiological, psycoligical and societal factors that make for BYU's chronic failures on the big stage?

You are so predictable in your sexy trolling. And in your plagiarism.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpost.php?p=4404&postcount=11

venkman
12-03-2008, 02:06 PM
LaVell wasn't too concerned about winning bowl games at first. But really, I think his struggles may have just come down to talent. If you look at BYU during the dominant period (79-85) they did alright in their bowl games. Even so, they always seemed to struggle against top teams, and I think that came down to talent. As such, LaVell was always focused on recruiting "speed".

And frankly, talent, speed, depth, is still a problem for Bronco, particularly on the defensive side. That and like Rocky said, BYU has been flat-out outcoached in big games, which I don't think was often the case during the LaVell years. Case in point: Chow in the 96 Utah game v. Anae in the 08 Utah game.

YOhio
12-03-2008, 02:14 PM
Because the Lord is challenging me. The Jazz have that same problem. It seems to be a trend among my favorite sports teams.

pelagius
12-03-2008, 04:05 PM
LaVell wasn't too concerned about winning bowl games at first. But really, I think his struggles may have just come down to talent. If you look at BYU during the dominant period (79-85) they did alright in their bowl games. Even so, they always seemed to struggle against top teams, and I think that came down to talent. As such, LaVell was always focused on recruiting "speed".


The data are pretty clear in this regard. LaVell actually didn't do much worse in Bowl Games once you account for schedule strength. BYU had about the same winning percentage for opponents of a similar quality. I posted something similar a long time ago but its probably new to SU. Here is s look at Bowl games during the Lavel glory years and non Bowl games against opponents with year end computer rank in the top 40.

First the bowl sample: 1980 - 1991



Variable | Obs Mean Std. Dev. Min Max
-------------+--------------------------------------------------------
win | 12 .4583333 .4981025 0 1
rank | 12 21.91667 9.189503 8 44


Comparision: 1980 - 1991
And now a comparisom sample of opponents with year end massey computer rank of less than 40:



Variable | Obs Mean Std. Dev. Min Max
-------------+--------------------------------------------------------
win | 28 .5178571 .4996692 0 1
rank | 28 22.82143 10.87319 3 37


The average ranking across the groups is very similar, but BYU did win a little bit more frequently in the regular season than for bowl games. However, the difference between the two samples is *not* statistically significant (t-stat = -0.35 so we are not even close to significance). Thus it appears that the best explanation for a relative low bowl game winning perecentage is still that BYU played relative high quality opponents and Bowl games were not unique.

Also, given the opponent quality the record actually looks pretty good to me on average for both bowl games and the regular season.

SeattleUte
12-03-2008, 04:42 PM
Pelagius, I don't really understand your post. I do know this. I lived through much of LaVelle's career in Utah and I recall year after year of bowl losses. Jim McMahon's hail mary broke an embarrassing string of set backs. One year Marc Wilson led an undefeated team into a bowl against some fourth place team and BYU lost on a chip shot doink as time ran out. Even the storied 1984 Michigan game wasn't impressive.

I agree with you that BYU's record is partially because when it plays in bowls it plays better teams. This coincides with 1-20 against ranked teams. Hence, my original question because other MWC teams have better records against BCS and ranked teams.

Can you figure out what BYU's BCS ranking would have been in 1984?

creekster
12-03-2008, 04:45 PM
Pelagius, I don't really understand your post. I do know this. I lived through much of LaVelle's career in Utah and I recall year after year of bowl losses. Jim McMahon's hail mary broke an embarrassing string of set backs. One year Marc Wilson led an undefeated team into a bowl against some fourth place team and BYU lost on a chip shot doink as time ran out. Even the storied 1984 Michigan game wasn't impressive.

I agree with you that BYU's record is partially because when it plays in bowls it plays better teams. This coincides with 1-20 against ranked teams. Hence, my original question because other MWC teams have better records against BCS and ranked teams.

Can you figure out what BYU's BCS ranking would have been in 1984?

Gather round kids, this is a textbook example of how lawyers work. First, he admits he has no clue what Pelagius said. Second, he proceeds to reassert his own argument, suggesting that whatever the hoo-hah pelagius just burped up meant, it wasn't enough to affect his position. Third, he then actually refers to pelagisu' positon as thought he understood it and suggests it merely feeds into his own claim.

Bravo. Very nice.


For the record, I didn't understadn it either, and I still think I'm right about everything, too.

venkman
12-03-2008, 05:01 PM
Pelagius, I don't really understand your post. I do know this. I lived through much of LaVelle's career in Utah and I recall year after year of bowl losses. Jim McMahon's hail mary broke an embarrassing string of set backs. One year Marc Wilson led an undefeated team into a bowl against some fourth place team and BYU lost on a chip shot doink as time ran out. Even the storied 1984 Michigan game wasn't impressive.

I agree with you that BYU's record is partially because when it plays in bowls it plays better teams. This coincides with 1-20 against ranked teams. Hence, my original question because other MWC teams have better records against BCS and ranked teams.

Can you figure out what BYU's BCS ranking would have been in 1984?

I think he means BYU lost when they faced superior opponents. I think BYU rarely beats themselves or has let down games. When they lose it's usually because the other team is better. (At least during the LaVell years. I think they had better coaching back then.)

The Utes, OTOH are usually better than their record indicates. But they have a couple of brain fart games and lose to chumps, thus having a lower conference ranking, thus getting an easier bowl opponent. When they're back on top of their game for the bowl they cruise past a weaker opponent.

pelagius
12-03-2008, 05:23 PM
Can you figure out what BYU's BCS ranking would have been in 1984?

I don't know for sure but I think I can do a back of the envelope guess (once again I have basically done this before). They would have mostly likely been either 2nd in the BCS or third before the Bowl game. The final 1984 AP poll before bowl games (12/4/84) can actually be found at the following:

http://www.soonerstats.com/fb/polls/...m?APPollID=587

Oklahoma was #2 in the AP and I believe #2 in the coaches but I don't have a link for that. Let's just assume Oklahoma would get an invite for sure. Therefore we just need to figure out if BYU would beat out #3 Florida, #4 Washington, and #5 Nebraska for the last spot. BYU would get the invite over Florida because Florida was on probation. Let's Consider whether they would get the nod over Washington. Since there is no Harris Poll I will use the AP in place of it.

BYU AP Score = 1091.5/1140 = 0.957
Washington AP Score = 963/1140 = 0.845

This is based on the total number of votes possible (you can figure it out from the number of first place votes) and the votes BYU or Washington received.

BYU Coaches Score = 0.957
Washington Coached Score = 18/20 = 0.90

I don't have the coaches poll so I will just assume BYU got the same fraction of votes as in the AP poll. Washington probably did better in the coaches poll since Florida would be excluded by the coaches. I'll just assume they got all 3rd place votes behind BYU and Oklahoma.

Suppose Washington ended up 3rd on average in the computer polls (behind Florida and Oklahoma) then their BCS rating would be:

Washington Rating = (0.845 + 0.9 + 0.9)/3 = 0.882

BYU would have needed an average computer ranking better than about 5.36 to beat Washington for the slot. Pretty good chance they would have made it. Its possible they would have ended up 3rd and not second but the computer rankings liked BYU that year. For example, the massey W/L ranking for that year was 3rd after taking out the ineligible Florida (at the end of the year but the Michigan wouldn't have helped much). Computers like BYU in 84 because almost all the teams with tough schedule lost a lot. Wahington, for example, had about the same SOS as BYU.

pelagius
12-03-2008, 05:28 PM
Pelagius, I don't really understand your post. I do know this. I lived through much of LaVelle's career in Utah and I recall year after year of bowl losses. Jim McMahon's hail mary broke an embarrassing string of set backs. One year Marc Wilson led an undefeated team into a bowl against some fourth place team and BYU lost on a chip shot doink as time ran out. Even the storied 1984 Michigan game wasn't impressive.


The post aint that complicated ... I am sure you can figure it out. Also, I'm glad you think your memory of a team you disliked is superior to objective measures like actual winning percentage and opponent quality as measured by MOV based computer rankings.

creekster
12-03-2008, 05:37 PM
The post aint that complicated ... I am sure you can figure it out. Also, I'm glad you think your memory of a team you disliked is superior to objective measures like actual winning percentage and opponent quality as measured by MOV based computer rankings.

PIt bulls bite. SU pontificates. It is in their nature and cannot be denied.

pelagius
12-03-2008, 05:43 PM
PIt bulls bite. SU pontificates. It is in their nature and cannot be denied.

Some of the problem is the time period. Its BYU best bowl game time period. Its BYU's best time period for everyhing, however. The point isn't that BYU was great from 80-91. The point is that LaVell's teams didn't perform anomalous in Bowl games. They lost at about the same frequency in Bowl games as they did in regular season games once one controls for opponent quality. Changing the time period lowers the overall winning percentage of both sample groups but the relative winning percentage ratio actually shrinks.

I have no desire to argue with SU about the greatness of BYU.

SeattleUte
12-04-2008, 08:45 AM
I have no desire to argue with SU about the greatness of BYU.

Kind of like arguing about religion, we'd run out of things to say.

All-American
12-04-2008, 08:58 AM
What is Utah's biggest win ever?

SeattleUte
12-04-2008, 09:05 AM
What is Utah's biggest win ever?

Many would disagree with me, but I think the 2004 Fiesta Bowl win was the most important win ever by any measure.

What was BYU's? Interesting question.

il Padrino Ute
12-04-2008, 09:20 AM
What is Utah's biggest win ever?

The Fiesta Bowl. It was the biggest stage the Utes had ever played on in football.

Perhaps this year's bowl game will be bigger, should the Utes win.

TripletDaddy
12-04-2008, 09:25 AM
Many would disagree with me, but I think the 2004 Fiesta Bowl win was the most important win ever by any measure.

What was BYU's? Interesting question.

If you go by net result, then beating Michigan to win the NC would be the biggest win.

If you go by media buzz, beating #1 Miami would be the biggest win.

What is the highest ranked opponent each team has beaten? Besides Miami, how many other top 10 teams has BYU beaten? Top 10 at the time of the game? What about Utah? I dont know off the top of my head.

Goatnapper'96
12-04-2008, 09:32 AM
If you go by net result, then beating Michigan to win the NC would be the biggest win.

If you go by media buzz, beating #1 Miami would be the biggest win.

What is the highest ranked opponent each team has beaten? Besides Miami, how many other top 10 teams has BYU beaten? Top 10 at the time of the game? What about Utah? I dont know off the top of my head.


I think the highest team ranking at the end of the year either team that Utah has beaten was BYU either this year or 1994.

BYU it would be either Miami in 1990 or Kansas State in 1996. Kansas State in 1996 is the highest ranked bowl opponent either team has beaten. I think Arizona is the only team Utah beat in a bowl that finished ranked. BYU has beaten SMU, Colorado and Kansas State in bowl games where the teams finished ranked in those respective seasons.

TripletDaddy
12-04-2008, 09:37 AM
I think the highest team ranking at the end of the year either team that Utah has beaten was BYU either this year or 1994.

BYU it would be either Miami in 1990 or Kansas State in 1996. Kansas State in 1996 is the highest ranked bowl opponent either team has beaten. I think Arizona is the only team Utah beat in a bowl that finished ranked. BYU has beaten SMU, Colorado and Kansas State in bowl games where the teams finished ranked in those respective seasons.

What about the ranking at the time the game was played?

I remember my uncle (a Ute grad) was so excited several years ago because Utah beat Oregon in SLC. He said it was one of the biggests wins in the school's football history at the time. I kind of felt bad if that were true.

Ute fans on the board, what is the highest ranked team the Utes have played and beaten? I am talking about the rank at the time the game was played?

il Padrino Ute
12-04-2008, 09:40 AM
What about the ranking at the time the game was played?

I remember my uncle (a Ute grad) was so excited several years ago because Utah beat Oregon in SLC. He said it was one of the biggests wins in the school's football history at the time. I kind of felt bad if that were true.

Ute fans on the board, what is the highest ranked team the Utes have played and beaten? I am talking about the rank at the time the game was played?


I honestly don't know. I really only follow the Utes ranking.

If I had to guess, I would say Colorado State back in the '94 season, when the Utes and CSU were both undefeated at the time and IIRC, both were in the Top 10.

Do you remember what year the Utah/Oregon game was your uncle is referencing? I remember when the Utes beat Oregon in Eugene when the Ducks ended up in the Rose Bowl. '94 I believe it was.

The only time I remember the Utes beating Oregon in SLC was in '03, Meyer's first year.

Goatnapper'96
12-04-2008, 09:41 AM
What about the ranking at the time the game was played?

I remember my uncle (a Ute grad) was so excited several years ago because Utah beat Oregon in SLC. He said it was one of the biggests wins in the school's football history at the time. I kind of felt bad if that were true.

Ute fans on the board, what is the highest ranked team the Utes have played and beaten? I am talking about the rank at the time the game was played?

I don't think Oregon was ranked in 2003 when Utah beat them if so it was in the 20's. My gut instinct is Utah's biggest win over a ranked opponent was either AZ in the 1994 Copper Bowl or TCU this past year. Maybee GT in 2005. I think Southern Miss was ranked like 19 when Utah thumped them in the Liberty Bowl in 2003 as well.

BYU's biggest win over a team ranked at that time was #1 Miami, or perhaps #3 Pitt, or #7 Arizona State or maybee #3 Air Force. However, only Miami and Air Force finished the year ranked.

Goatnapper'96
12-04-2008, 09:42 AM
I honestly don't know. I really only follow the Utes ranking.

If I had to guess, I would say Colorado State back in the '94 season, when the Utes and CSU were both undefeated at the time and IIRC, both were in the Top 10.

I forgot about that game, I think CSU was #10 or 7..or something like that. That is probably the Ute's biggest win over a ranked opponent.

il Padrino Ute
12-04-2008, 09:45 AM
I don't think Oregon was ranked in 2003 when Utah beat them if so it was in the 20's. My gut instinct is Utah's biggest win over a ranked opponent was either AZ in the 1994 Copper Bowl or TCU this past year. Maybee GT in 2005. I think Southern Miss was ranked like 19 when Utah thumped them in the Liberty Bowl in 2003 as well.

BYU's biggest win over a team ranked at that time was #1 Miami, or perhaps #3 Pitt, or #7 Arizona State or maybee #3 Air Force. However, only Miami and Air Force finished the year ranked.

I'm not sure what Arizona was ranked when the Utes played them in the Freedom Bowl. I just know that it was against the Desert Swarm defense.

il Padrino Ute
12-04-2008, 09:47 AM
I forgot about that game, I think CSU was #10 or 7..or something like that. That is probably the Ute's biggest win over a ranked opponent.

I think CSU was #7 and Utah was #8 when they played.

HuskyFreeNorthwest
12-06-2008, 05:08 PM
Serious question: Why is BYU sports so provincial? This is not a troll. It's a serious question.

BYU has had stretches of domination or dynasty in both the big DI team sports. You could make a case that BYU's basketball tradition is slightly better than utah's if you ignored post-season play. Utah's rising to BCS heights and stellar bowl and vs. top 25 record gives BYU's football tradition a run.


What's the matter with BYU? What are the physiological, psycoligical and societal factors that make for BYU's chronic failures on the big stage?
Bump.

I have thought about this a decent amount since you posted it and it is really strange. Recently a friend of mine was talking to me about how everyone is gunning so hard for the Celtics and Lakers in the NBA this year that every game has a playoff feel to it, and by doing that it just makes those two teams so much more likely to be ready mentally for the playoffs.

As BYU fans we often suggest that we are every team's rival, that everyone gets up for us. Yet it does not correlate into us being more prepared and mentally tough come tourney/bowl time.

I would like to use the mission excuse, that one loses a competitive edge after serving a mission, but I think that is garbage.

HuskyFreeNorthwest
12-06-2008, 05:11 PM
I honestly don't know. I really only follow the Utes ranking.

Do you remember what year the Utah/Oregon game was your uncle is referencing? I remember when the Utes beat Oregon in Eugene when the Ducks ended up in the Rose Bowl. '94 I believe it was.

The only time I remember the Utes beating Oregon in SLC was in '03, Meyer's first year.

It was in 03 and Oregon was ranked 19.
http://www.goducks.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=3377&SPID=233&DB_OEM_ID=500&KEY=&Q_SEASON=2003

Mormon Red Death
12-06-2008, 06:45 PM
I think the highest team ranking at the end of the year either team that Utah has beaten was BYU either this year or 1994.

BYU it would be either Miami in 1990 or Kansas State in 1996. Kansas State in 1996 is the highest ranked bowl opponent either team has beaten. I think Arizona is the only team Utah beat in a bowl that finished ranked. BYU has beaten SMU, Colorado and Kansas State in bowl games where the teams finished ranked in those respective seasons.

I think 1994 when Utah beat Colo St I believe they were 6th at the time

SeattleUte
12-20-2008, 08:53 PM
Bump.

Some things never change.

Fiyero
09-13-2009, 06:33 PM
Bump.

Some things never change.

Never say never.