Caucuses v primaries: CUF political scientists make the case

[oxcoug]

and by "CUF political scientists" I don't just mean YOhio - I'd include anyone w/ a law degree, anyone who lives in the greater DC Metro area, anyone related to anyone who has a Poli Sci degree and anyone who watches Anderson Cooper 360.

My sister is very (read: frighteningly) involved in Utah politics and has become a big rah rah fan of caucuses. I see caucuses as a way of getting people to vote in herds and being unduly influenced by factors outside of the dictates of their own mind and conscience.

Pros and cons? Let's hear 'em.

[Pelado]

and by "CUF political scientists" I don't just mean YOhio - I'd include anyone w/ a law degree, anyone who lives in the greater DC Metro area, anyone related to anyone who has a Poli Sci degree and anyone who watches Anderson Cooper 360.

My sister is very (read: frighteningly) involved in Utah politics and has become a big rah rah fan of caucuses. I see caucuses as a way of getting people to vote in herds and being unduly influenced by factors outside of the dictates of their own mind and conscience.

Pros and cons? Let's hear 'em.

I don't know that I actually fit into any of the authorized categories, but I will still make my thoughts known.

Idaho held its first ever caucus this year. The various caucus locations opened their doors at 4 p.m. and closed at 7 p.m, when they began to vote. Some of the locations took up to three hours to complete their voting. I heard from one of the Canyon County participants, of which there were around 4,500, that lots of people walked out after the second round of voting. Had it gone another round, the vote could have turned out much different than the earlier rounds.

Anyone who couldn't devote those 4+ hours to the caucus was prevented from participating in the process. Those who had to work (including police, fire, medical providers, etc.) where barred from participating. It makes it very difficult for both parents of small kids to participate. It also prevents the infirm or those travelling from casting absentee ballots.

Essentially, the caucus is a method to weed out the non-activists. It tends to favor extremists, and is likely to increase the polarization of the national political discourse.

[San Juan Sun]

The word "caucus" is fun to say.

[oxcoug]

Essentially, the caucus is a method to weed out the non-activists. It tends to favor extremists, and is likely to increase the polarization of the national political discourse.

Yup, boom. It's an Erick Erickson Fest. My feeling exactly, thanks for the eyewitness confirmation.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I got this e-mail in October 2009:

-----Original Message-----
From: Utah Tea Party [mailto:saltlaketeaparty@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 1:11 PM
To: ________
Subject: Utah Tea Party and 912--TIME FOR ACTION! Come learn how to become a Utah neighborhood delegate!

UTAH 912 and UTAH TEA PARTY RALLY!

We will show you how YOU can represent your neighborhood as a delegate and vote in the Utah state and county conventions! Now you can finally made a DIFFERENCE.

When: Saturday, 14 November 2009
Time: 10:00 a.m. to Noon
Where: Utah State Capitol (Inside in the Rotunda)
What: Neighborhood Call to Action! Exciting speakers! ***Delegate Training***

Come listen to keynote speaker Congressman Jason Chaffetz discuss the conservative principles that helped him win the election and how YOU too can REALLY make a difference.

We have organized 8 Tea Parties and 912 rallies here in Utah this past year--thousands have attended. THANK YOU! We organized Utah's First Tea Party on March 6, 2009 at the Utah State Capitol--long before Tea Parties were popular nationwide (see attached photo). We organized the first 912 rallies on March 13, 2009 around the State where we were challenged to make our voices be heard! The Utah Tea Parties, 912ers, and others have now joined forces to improve our government. This CALL TO ACTION event is NOT A CAMPAIGN RALLY.

After each of our protests and rallies, everyone keeps asking, "What's next? How can I make a REAL difference?" Now its time to take it to the next level--it it time for ACTION! Come to the rally and we will show you how the political system in Utah works. You will learn how you can become part of a delegation with real power.

Did you know?

* The secret to making local and national political change is with YOU AND YOUR NEIGHBORS.
* Utah has a unique situation which gives us an enormous opportunity--we have a DELEGATE system with DIRECT and MAJOR impact on Utah Elections.
* Delegates represent their neighborhood precinct in the State and County Conventions by voting for party candidates BEFORE the primary.
* If a candidate wins 60% of the delegate votes at the convention they become the party nominee and there is NO PRIMARY election--the winner immediately advances to the general election! This delegate process levels the playing field for anyone who wants to run for office.

Utah and America needs YOU to come and learn how YOU can really make a difference to elect freedom-loving candidates to Utah's political offices and to drive national policy. Speakers will discuss the issues that are keeping each of us up at night--fiscal irresponsibility, overreaching government, federal control of Utah's Education Trust Fund Lands and energy resources, and government corruption. More importantly, we will discuss the SOLUTION. We can not stress to you how important it is for you to attend and BRING A FRIEND! If we all work together, we can start changing our nation--one neighborhood at a time. Yes, YOU can make a difference!

More details coming soon! See you there!

Event Contact: 801-377-8224
David Kirkham

Event Coordinators:
David Kirkham, Utah Tea Party
Susan Southwick, Utah Tea Party
Brian Halladay, Utah County 912
Becky Pirente, Utah County 912
Jeff Moore, Davis County 912
Darcy Van Orden, Davis County 912
Michele LeMmon, Davis County 912
Larry Jensen, Salt Lake County 912
Kim Coleman, Salt Lake County 912
Tom Burton, Summit County 912
Jeff Marsh, Weber County 912

I sent this e-mail in response:

David,

You said:

* If a candidate wins 60% of the delegate votes at the convention they become the party nominee and there is NO PRIMARY election--the winner immediately advances to the general election! This delegate process levels the playing field for anyone who wants to run for office.

Please explain to me how circumventing a primary election via a process of courting delegates "levels the playing field"? In a good way, I mean. You and I both know that once a candidate gets out of the primaries, the election is typically over (especially in Utah County) as long as the candidate is an R and not a D. You seem awfully gleeful about what I consider to be a major flaw in the Utah political system. Maybe you can enlighten me on what I am missing. Keep in mind that I have seen firsthand how these neighborhood caucuses can be easily manipulated.

Thanks,

XXXX

Shortly thereafter I was removed from this mailing list.

[oxcoug]

My bro - an actual political scientist - weighs in via Skype w/ this semi-counter (responding to Pelado).

Can't speak for idaho, but in utah, that's not necessarily true. The caucus produced a 57% win for the intelligent moderate Bridgewater, but in primary runoff , bought and paid for with a barrage of radio ads from out of state, the kooky, lightweight Tea Party poser won narrowly.

Sen. Mike Lee is a product of the primary NOT of the caucus

Guess it's not as cut-and-dried and easy to hate caucuses as I thought.

[DU Ute]

I got this e-mail in October 2009:



I sent this e-mail in response:



Shortly thereafter I was removed from this mailing list.

Awesome response. It's reassuring to me that the Church is pushing for more Utahns to get involved in the process. Utah politics are nuts.

[Pelado]

My bro - an actual political scientist - weighs in via Skype w/ this semi-counter (responding to Pelado).



Guess it's not as cut-and-dried and easy to hate caucuses as I thought.

What's to prevent a similar barrage of advertising prior to the caucus?

[pellegrino]

My bro - an actual political scientist - weighs in via Skype w/ this semi-counter (responding to Pelado).



Guess it's not as cut-and-dried and easy to hate caucuses as I thought.

I think it is, because the caucus can more easily be manipulated than a primary.

In the end it is a trade off, have a caucus that can be manipulated by anyone willing to organize or have a primary that can be swayed by anyone with enough money to advertise effectively. Personally, I'd rather see a primary.

[YOhio]

My bro - an actual political scientist - weighs in via Skype w/ this semi-counter (responding to Pelado).



Guess it's not as cut-and-dried and easy to hate caucuses as I thought.

That's somewhat inaccurate. Utah employs a multi-step system with a caucus, convention and a primary. The caucus itself didn't produce any candidates, rather it produced convention delegates from every precinct in the state. At convention those delegates participated in multiple rounds of voting where candidates are winnowed down. If a candidate receives >60% of the vote in any round then he/she completely avoids a primary and all other candidates are eliminated. If not, then the final two candidates remaining are required to compete in a primary. The only reason Bridgewater received 57% is because the Bennett delegates largely supported the more moderate candidate (which is a pretty inaccurate description of Bridgewater, but relative to Lee he is moderate). Once it got to a primary then the candidate with the famous name, Mike Lee, was able to take the race.

Even then he is pointing to one of two exceptions in Utah politics (the other being Jason Chaffetz over Chris Cannon in 2008). Over the past couple of decades incumbent candidates have been forced into a primary race after the convention by more ideological opponents. Last election Jim Matheson was pushed into a primary because of party dissatisfaction with his opposition to Obamacare. In 2006 Chris Cannon was pushed to a primary by John Jacob. In 2000 Mike Leavitt was pushed into a primary by Glen Davis. All of these more moderate incumbents ended up with decisive primary victories after narrowly escaping the state convention.

I agree with Pelado as to the disadvantages of a caucus system. It favors activists and those on the ideological extreme, like a bad version of the 17th Amendment. That said, it does allow for more disruption and unseating of bad incumbents at a lower cost than would a primary election. Because participants are generally known and limited to active participants in the caucus system, a broad messaging campaign is much more manageable than in a primary. I don't think the trade off is worth it, but it can occasionally produce a positive outcome.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Hey, what do you know? I am back on the Tea Party mailing list. Just got another e-mail from them on the caucuses. Here is an excerpt. Note that they provide with a nice little speech you can use to get elected as a delegate.

REMIND YOUR FRIENDS & SUPPORTERS!!!

NEIGHBORHOOD CAUCUS NIGHT
Thursday, March 15th
Registration begins at 6:30PM, Meeting promptly at 7PM

1. You can elect yourself for delegate and then have a 1-2 minute speech in mind...
2. Run for state delegate, additionally you can also run for county delegate ( check with precinct )

(How it works)
- Sign in and get registered with your Precinct Chair ( prove either by voter id card or lookup to see if your a Registered republican)
- Meeting begins, say Pledge
- Say prayer
-broken into Precinct, voting begins done by Precinct chair

Example speech:

I want to run for this position because I'm very concerned about the direction of our state and country, the attack by the federal government on our Constitution, the attack currently on our freedoms as well as religious freedoms (currently Catholics and soon other groups after them)... We need to elect candidates who have integrity and will stand in defense of our liberties. I believe that I, as well as others, need to do this because our government is run by the consent of the governed (People) and if I'm not participating like other like-minded people, then I cannot complain about the direction our country is going if I do nothing. I would like your vote... Thank you!

This is good because we will be able to identify the Tea Partiers based on the speech they give.

[Ma'ake]

Utah is a unique situation. Even though voter participation rates have plummeted, the likelihood that Utahns will vote for non-Republicans is very low.

Is there a tipping point where the public will reject how they're treated by public servants? It doesn't seem to be anywhere in sight. Maybe if the Legislature passed a law mandating that the state can't provide instructional material for public schools, instead using that money to give every grade-schooler a gun to battle the inevitable teacher Communist takeover, and promote freedom.

As it is, the Legislature passed a law last year mandating instruction that we don't have a Democracy, but a "Compound Constitutional Republic", with the caucus system and falling voter rates both supporting that view.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Check out this article on the efforts to unseat Orrin Hatch.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73911.html

This quote blew me away:

Since then, Hatch’s team has been on a furious drive to court tea party activists and to see his delegates elected to the state’s nominating convention.

They have recruited 5,000 people to run for spots as delegates, according to Dave Hansen, the senator’s campaign manager. At the same time, FreedomWorks has stepped up its campaign, too, recruiting between 3,500 and 4,000 people to run for delegate spots, Walker said.

At our caucus meeting on Thursday, I am going to ask those running to get elected as a delegate if they are in one camp or the other.

[Eddie]

Check out this article on the efforts to unseat Orrin Hatch.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73911.html

This quote blew me away:

At our caucus meeting on Thursday, I am going to ask those running to get elected as a delegate if they are in one camp or the other.

My sister has been a delegate in the past. A few months back she got a call from Hatch's campaign folks asking if she was interesting in being a delegate again, asking if she would commit to supporting him, and telling her that they would make sure there were enough folks there to get her voted into the position if she would agree to do it.

I don't remember what she told them - but I remember thinking it was pretty interesting the approach they had taken.

[Shaka]

My sister has been a delegate in the past. A few months back she got a call from Hatch's campaign folks asking if she was interesting in being a delegate again, asking if she would commit to supporting him, and telling her that they would make sure there were enough folks there to get her voted into the position if she would agree to do it.

I don't remember what she told them - but I remember thinking it was pretty interesting the approach they had taken.

It's a common approach.