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After-Birth Abortion - Or what I think most of us would call "Killing a Baby"..

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  • After-Birth Abortion - Or what I think most of us would call "Killing a Baby"..

    When I first started reading this I thought it had to be a joke.. Sadly it is not. I do have to say.. My thought does agree with them that killing a fetus and a Newborn baby is essentially the same. Which is why I am against abortion in the first place.


    In this article (Written for the Journal of Medical Ethics ) it concludes they (A Baby) are not a "Person" but a "Human being" and define the distinction as one as a contributing member of society and the other is not..



    As a society have we lost our moral compass so badly that such articles are written and the definition of ethics steers so far of course that we would in fact call this ethical?? I find this alarming that such an opinion is out there on this..



    Some excerpts from the article:

    They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”

    Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’.

    “We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.”
    This one made me ill..
    The authors therefore concluded that “what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled”.

    They also argued that parents should be able to have the baby killed if it turned out to be disabled without their knowing before birth, for example citing that “only the 64 per cent of Down’s syndrome cases” in Europe are diagnosed by prenatal testing.

    Once such children were born there was “no choice for the parents but to keep the child”, they wrote.

    “To bring up such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.”
    They preferred to use the phrase “after-birth abortion” rather than “infanticide” to “emphasise that the moral status of the individual killed is comparable with that of a fetus”.
    Link to article:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...perts-say.html

  • #2
    Yikes. There be the bottom of the silppery slope.

    Comment


    • #3
      This emanates from the ivory tower, by the way. There is no way on earth anyone will be persuaded by this to make infanticide legal.

      Comment


      • #4
        Referring to the term "after-birth abortion", Dr Stammers added: "This is just verbal manipulation that is not philosophy. I might refer to abortion henceforth as antenatal infanticide."
        Everything in life is an approximation.

        http://twitter.com/CougarStats

        Comment


        • #5
          Link to actual article..

          http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/201....full.pdf+html

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
            This emanates from the ivory tower, by the way. There is no way on earth anyone will be persuaded by this to make infanticide legal.
            Is that so? Both good and bad movements can begin in academia.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Omaha 680 View Post
              Is that so? Both good and bad movements can begin in academia.
              Do you find it persuasive? I can't imagine anyone who would. Pro-lifers of course won't. Pro-choicers will condemn it as an attempt to caricature their position and say that, of course, no one would allow that.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
                This emanates from the ivory tower, by the way. There is no way on earth anyone will be persuaded by this to make infanticide legal.
                While I tend to agree that here in the US that is true, but it seems this has been an ongoing discussion in Europe.

                Another excerpt from the article

                Defending the decision to publish in a British Medical Journal blog, Prof Savulescu, said that arguments in favour of killing newborns were “largely not new”.

                What Minerva and Giubilini did was apply these arguments “in consideration of maternal and family interests”.

                While accepting that many people would disagree with their arguments, he wrote: “The goal of the Journal of Medical Ethics is not to present the Truth or promote some one moral view. It is to present well reasoned argument based on widely accepted premises.”

                Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, he added: “This “debate” has been an example of “witch ethics” - a group of people know who the witch is and seek to burn her. It is one of the most dangerous human tendencies we have. It leads to lynching and genocide. Rather than argue and engage, there is a drive is to silence and, in the extreme, kill, based on their own moral certainty. That is not the sort of society we should live in.”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
                  Do you find it persuasive? I can't imagine anyone who would. Pro-lifers of course won't. Pro-choicers will condemn it as an attempt to caricature their position and say that, of course, no one would allow that.
                  Of course I don't. But to say it won't pesuade anyone is wrong I think. The abortion battle is a front and neither extreme will accept a truce. The front will always move one way or another. Is the US it has been pressed so far in one direction that partial birth abortion, a practice that most find repugnant is protected in most places. The argument put forth in the article is just the next logical step right?

                  I'm not saying infanticide is on the verge of becoming legal, I just wouldn't discount out of hand the possibility at some future date. You yourself reference the proverbial slippery slope in your initial reply.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This book by Peter Singer broaches this topic but not so in-depth as this article.. This was during the whole Right to Die discussion (Terry SChiavo etc).. Not the Right to Kill. Which is where this article went..

                    Ironic that all of these discussions are based out of Australia.

                    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Life-Death-Collapse-Traditional/dp/0312144016"]Amazon.com: Rethinking Life and Death: The Collapse of Our Traditional Ethics (9780312144012): Peter Singer: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Io5F1-fsL.@@AMEPARAM@@51Io5F1-fsL[/ame]


                    Oh yeah. Peter Singer teaches at Princeton University...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Omaha 680 View Post
                      Of course I don't. But to say it won't pesuade anyone is wrong I think. The abortion battle is a front and neither extreme will accept a truce. The front will always move one way or another. Is the US it has been pressed so far in one direction that partial birth abortion, a practice that most find repugnant is protected in most places. The argument put forth in the article is just the next logical step right?

                      I'm not saying infanticide is on the verge of becoming legal, I just wouldn't discount out of hand the possibility at some future date. You yourself reference the proverbial slippery slope in your initial reply.
                      I did, but keep in mind that "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy. I think that infanticide becoming legal as a next step from abortion is about as logical and likely as saying that issuing driver's licenses to 10 years old minors is the next from issuing them to 16 year old minors. I mean, they're both minors, right? Why not? That is my point.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hmm, my first thought was that this was a satirical piece showing the ethically razor thin position of late-term abortion by asking the quesiton: At what point is it okay to kill a fetus? When it takes a breath? When the umbilical cord is snipped and it is detached from the mother? When it could survive outside the womb? Never? After it is born as long as it has down syndrome?

                        "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
                          I did, but keep in mind that "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy. I think that infanticide becoming legal as a next step from abortion is about as logical and likely as saying that issuing driver's licenses to 10 years old minors is the next from issuing them to 16 year old minors. I mean, they're both minors, right? Why not? That is my point.
                          Sure, under our moral construct it is a huge leap. But the argument is for a new moral construct. We have already dehumanized a fetus to the point that it is legal to kill up until the moment of birth. The next step the article takes is saying that birth isn't what makes a fetus a person, it's contributing to society, becoming self-aware, or some other developed characteristic. Yeah, sounds like a ridiculous leap to us but the argument is out there.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Add that to this recent comment from libertarial/liberaltarian Will Wilkinson, who thinks birth draws an arbitrary line and isn't sure a society that allows infanticide is worse than one that doesn't:

                            Abortion. This is far and away the hardest one. I favour legal abortion. I don't think embryos or fetuses are persons, and I don't think it's wrong to kill them. I also don't think infants are persons, but I do think laws that prohibit infanticide are wise. Birth is a metaphysically arbitrary line, but it's a supremely salient socio-psychological one. A general abhorrence of the taking of human life is something any healthy culture will inculcate in its members. It's easier to cultivate the appropriate moral sentiments within a society that has adopted the convention of conferring robust moral rights on infants upon birth than it would be in a society that had adopted the convention of conferring the same rights on children only after they've reached some significant developmental milestone, such as the onset of intelligible speech. The latter society, I suspect, would tend to be more generally cruel and less humane. This is just an empirical hunch, though I feel fairly confident about it. But I could be wrong.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jacob View Post
                              Add that to this recent comment from libertarial/liberaltarian Will Wilkinson, who thinks birth draws an arbitrary line and isn't sure a society that allows infanticide is worse than one that doesn't:
                              What a keen mind he has. A society that allows the killing of 1 year old children might possibly "tend to be more generally cruel and less humane", though he bravely admits that it is just a hunch and he may be wrong.

                              Sounds like quite a deep thinker.

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