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  • BYU's football program

    is not nearly the mess many would like it to be. In fact this year was pretty dang decent given the various problems the program faced and dealt with. However, the downside is that BYU's ceiling might not be as high as many in this fanbase would like it to be and much like I once warned that the whining about Robert Anae's lack of "unpredictability" sounded much to me like whining of yesteryear about Norm Chow's lack of "unpredictability" it might just be that BYU is about as good as it can get. I think the whining about Mendenhall is an indicator of how little much of this fanbase understands about how much worse it can get. For example we could be like many programs in college football who don't beat every stinking team that we should. Coaches who consistenly beat everyone that they should are pretty good coaches.

    Mendenhall's biggest issues, IMO, are that his two biggest comparison points are that he is compared to two of the best coaches in college football in Kyle Whittingham and Gary Patterson, or at least one that should be included in the conversation and one who is not too far from being included. In some ways Mendenhall reminds me a bit of Fisher DeBerry, pegging his program's potential but just being consistently compared to a program with a great coach and a higher ceiling, when he couldn't beat Lavell Edwards for so long. That is not to say that the one annual meltdown that has happened since 2008 (Utah - 08, FSU - 09, USU - 10, Utah -11) are good. Nor the fact that it has happened against the Utes twice helps. Not playing real clean against TCU this year was miserably frustrating. However, this was still a relatively young team that I think has a real bright future and will be a good team next year. I think BYU is looking at a good chance of another solid 11-2 year with a couple of wins over top 30ish clubs and potentially a couple of losses to teams of that caliber. With some really good breaks they could do better and I would not write that option off. I don't think Mendenhall is a legendary coach but he is much closer to that option than he is anything else and the whining about him is certainly not commensurate with what he has shown in the 7 years he has been BYU's HC.

    I think Brandon Doman will be fine as an OC, but it is going to take a bit more time. I think the offense is better prepared next year to hide his growing pains than it was this year. I was hoping that Jake Heaps was becoming a qb that could do that but obviously he was not. I am confident that Doman will look a hell of a lot smarter next year than this past year and will start to do well, on his own merits, starting in 2013. From a coaching perspective I think the change in OC was the most to blame of any coaching mistake for the qb debacle that will forever mar 2012. The 2nd biggest coaching mistake was any coddling that Jake Heaps recieved and that coddling might or might not have had some influence on the decision to replace Anae. It was not consistent with Mendenhall's rhetoric of earning it and while one might not like Mendnehall's rhetoric, one should agree that as a leader he must be consistent. Some might not like Ogletree but the reality is if BYU is ever going to reach that unreachable ceiling it is going to need overachievers. Shay Muirbrook was not a 5 star superstar.

    The Jake Heaps story hurts in so many directions. The divulged personal trauma a 20 year old kid is enduring is sad enough. The blow up of our dreams that BYU might finally reach and break that ceiling is hard to take. It is compounded by the fact that BYU has two of the its 5 best receivers in its history on the team as underclassmen at the same time and without a qb who can effectively maximize the utilization. I feel the pain. However, I think a great deal of this story going south is outside of the coaches control. I believe they made some mistakes but I still think even if they had not made their mistakes this story likely would not have ended well for BYU. I think the lesson Mendenhall will take is nobody will ever even get a sniff of coddled treatment from him even if they are a sure hit recruit. Jake fell apart folks and perhaps it was for reasons outside his control as well, but I just don't think we were ever going to see the dream we had after the New Mexico Bowl come to fruition. However, because the program is stronger than many want to believe it was able to endure this horrific experience and still put a good product on the field and even with a qb who isn't that great of a thrower I still maintain we have a legit top 25 club next year.

    Riley Nelson is not a good passing qb. I think he is better than what we saw against Tulsa, but I don't think I have ever seen a set of BYU receivers who can so easily get so far open but be missed so routinely? Saying that, I think these kids have the ability to get YAC so I think BYU can shorten up its historical mid-range passing game and allow Ross and the Hoffman to get YAC. In fact I think they already have in some cases. Riley's other components as a qb (ability to run the ball, fearless play/leadership and uhhhh LUCK) should be enough given the playmaking ability of his receivers to effectively move the ball enough for BYU to win every game they play next year - given the defense BYU will have. Now, I don't expect that to happen and prior history indicates we will have to endure one maddening meltdown and probability gives us a 50% chance that will be against Utah. However, with an improved Mike Alisa and with hopefully a reborn Juice (and potentially a decent Hine or Williams) along with Iona Pritchard, and a healthy Dick Wilson and Mahina back at TE BYU will have plenty of weapons. Give that group a Steve Young or Jimbo Mac they could be a legit top 10 club and make that ceiling busting run, but to go into next year only defining success as that option is emotional suicide.

    I still maintain that BYU also needs to fix its home scheduling in a hurry. 2012 is ok, but very front loaded. My understanding is 2013 is also tentatively pretty good - especially if the rivalry continues. But if there is not light at the end of this independence tunnell by then, ticket sales and interest will begin to wane. I am all in for next year because the home schedule looks decent enough and because my understanding is the year after should be great but after that there needs to be clear resolution where this train is heading.

    The ultimate reason for excitement next year is this.....TCU IS NOT ON THE SCHEDULE!
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
    -DOCTOR Wuap

  • #2
    I don't think anyone sees the program as a mess...far from it. The current disappointment comes from what you mentioned, and that is a loss of opportunity to crack through what looks like a ceiling. That we've won 10 games or more in 5 of the last 6 seasons is exactly the point for two sides of the argument right now.

    I keep saying this but bronco is jerry sloan. His culture and need to win every battle are both his greatest asset and biggest weakness. I've watched this model for 20 years and it breeds consistency, but as you already noted, probably creates a certain ceiling. You can only get so far with matt harpring. That said, I'm pleased with broncos results and if that is what we are, then that is what we are. But if that is what we are, then he needs to stop selling me that we can be something greater.
    So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by MarkGrace View Post
      I don't think anyone sees the program as a mess...far from it. The current disappointment comes from what you mentioned, and that is a loss of opportunity to crack through what looks like a ceiling. That we've won 10 games or more in 5 of the last 6 seasons is exactly the point for two sides of the argument right now.

      I keep saying this but bronco is jerry sloan. His culture and need to win every battle are both his greatest asset and biggest weakness. I've watched this model for 20 years and it breeds consistency, but as you already noted, probably creates a certain ceiling. You can only get so far with matt harpring. That said, I'm pleased with broncos results and if that is what we are, then that is what we are. But if that is what we are, then he needs to stop selling me that we can be something greater.
      I think BYU has an excellent opportunity to break through the ceiling next season.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MarkGrace View Post
        I don't think anyone sees the program as a mess...far from it. The current disappointment comes from what you mentioned, and that is a loss of opportunity to crack through what looks like a ceiling. That we've won 10 games or more in 5 of the last 6 seasons is exactly the point for two sides of the argument right now.

        I keep saying this but bronco is jerry sloan. His culture and need to win every battle are both his greatest asset and biggest weakness. I've watched this model for 20 years and it breeds consistency, but as you already noted, probably creates a certain ceiling. You can only get so far with matt harpring. That said, I'm pleased with broncos results and if that is what we are, then that is what we are. But if that is what we are, then he needs to stop selling me that we can be something greater.
        I am not sure it is Bronco's culture that breeds the ceiling as much as it is the general potential of the program. Same with the Utah Jazz. Both might just be what they are and in the cases of Sloan and Mendenhall you have coaches who can best maximize that potential but the reality is when the potential is maximized it might just not be good enough. To be honest, IMO once college football figured out how to defend the forward pass (late eighties or about the time Ty Detmer took over at BYU) BYU has been at its best under the Mendenhall tenure. I think Mendenhall beats good teams about as frequently as Lavell did and beats worse teams more consistently than Lavell did. If Mendenhall finally breaks through that ceiling, which would require huge breaks as it did with Lavell, then nobody would have a beef with him.

        I think Big 12 inclusion could go a long way to give BYU the conditions it needs to break through, but barring that I don't see it happening. On the other hand with the upgraded competition week to week we might be forced to face what we really are.

        Mendenhall is an easy target because of his rhetoric and because of being compared to Whit and Patterson.
        Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
        -General George S. Patton

        I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
        -DOCTOR Wuap

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        • #5
          I wish TCU were in the schedule. It is a great game against a formidable opponent. I would like another shot at them.
          "Don't expect I'll see you 'till after the race"

          "So where does the power come from to see the race to its end...from within"

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          • #6
            This year was remarkably successful. We looked horrid at time and passable at others. There were a few glimpses of being good. We had a down year, but due to the coaching staff changes, QB SNAFU and heartbreaking loss to the Utes, we managed to piece together about as good a season as possible. It helps that the competition was so bad after September. The thing that bothers me the most about this year is Bronco's complete lack of managing expectations of his team and his players. I don't want to ever hear talk of a national championship again until we are undefeated in late November. Bronco needs to muzzle his players and manage media as best he can. I don't ever want to hear that the team gets to break early from Fall camp because they are ahead of some mythical standard in Bronco's head. I hope we are pretty good next year, and I hope we don't hear any hype more than that.
            Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
            - Howard Aiken

            Any sufficiently complicated platform contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a functional programming language.
            - Variation on Greenspun's Tenth Rule

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Shaka View Post
              I think BYU has an excellent opportunity to break through the ceiling next season.
              Just not sure I think Riley is a good enough qb. But that might be my own BYU bias of what it will take for BYU to get there. Next year's team could very much be like the 1996 team, especially if Jordan Johnson can develop into a decent cover corner as I felt the only defensive weakness of this team was Corby Eason's inability to cover decently, and the schedule is very ripe for that dream of all dream seasons, but at some point in time teams will force Riley to beat them with his arm. He doesn't need to be like John Beck but he needs to be better. And he needs to either be really lucky or stop making such boneheaded mistakes with his arm. I am not so convinced the luck methodology will get us through GaTech, Utah, BSU and Notre Dame unscathed.

              Heaven knows if he did it would be eternally glorious that it is a ballsy gamer that takes us to the promised land rather than a strong armed wanker. IMO it would prove the legitimacy of Mendenhall's program far more than where a strong armed wanker could take us. Such an accomplishment next year would be a team accomplishment, and I do agree with you that the various other component pieces are there. From special teams to defense to every other offensive position (save perhaps RB but I am optimistic that Alisa can fulfill that role next year with a year of development and getting over missionitis) the pieces are there for BYU to be that capable.
              Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
              -General George S. Patton

              I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
              -DOCTOR Wuap

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by doctorcoug View Post
                I wish TCU were in the schedule. It is a great game against a formidable opponent. I would like another shot at them.
                In last nights dream we played the Big-12 #2 BCS team in the Fiesta Bowl and it was a team coached by a man who catches the fancy of this boob loving soul!
                Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
                -General George S. Patton

                I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
                -DOCTOR Wuap

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
                  Just not sure I think Riley is a good enough qb. But that might be my own BYU bias of what it will take for BYU to get there. Next year's team could very much be like the 1996 team, especially if Jordan Johnson can develop into a decent cover corner as I felt the only defensive weakness of this team was Corby Eason's inability to cover decently, and the schedule is very ripe for that dream of all dream seasons, but at some point in time teams will force Riley to beat them with his arm. He doesn't need to be like John Beck but he needs to be better. And he needs to either be really lucky or stop making such boneheaded mistakes with his arm. I am not so convinced the luck methodology will get us through GaTech, Utah, BSU and Notre Dame unscathed.

                  Heaven knows if he did it would be eternally glorious that it is a ballsy gamer that takes us to the promised land rather than a strong armed wanker. IMO it would prove the legitimacy of Mendenhall's program far more than where a strong armed wanker could take us. Such an accomplishment next year would be a team accomplishment, and I do agree with you that the various other component pieces are there. From special teams to defense to every other offensive position (save perhaps RB but I am optimistic that Alisa can fulfill that role next year with a year of development and getting over missionitis) the pieces are there for BYU to be that capable.
                  I don't think it all rests on Riley. I think several off the field issues have been sorted out:

                  a) No QB controversy

                  b) Team leadership and the path to becoming a leader has been resolved. I really believe that BYU will have very strong leaders going into next season. I think Van Noy will play a significant leadership role.

                  c) Coach maturation. Doman will work extra hard to learn how to balance his dual roles. He will also solidify the playbook exhibit growth as a play caller.

                  d) Bronco will have learned from the Jake situation and will do a better job handling the highly touted recruit.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here's my concern: Riley isn't a poor man's Denard; He's a very poor man's Russel Wilson. Riley does best when he can throw to wide-open guys who have to respect his scrambling ability. I don't think he's nearly quick enough to actually succeed in a running spread, and even if he were, getting to the point where the reads are instinctual is a long process that even great option QBs often struggle with. And of course the OL recruiting and S&C would have to be completely revamped. Basically, next year turns into a rebuilding year if Doman goes to an option spread.

                    I've mentioned this several times, so I hope there's some information soon about what Doman actually plans. My prediction for next year will depend heavily on this.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by woot View Post
                      Here's my concern: Riley isn't a poor man's Denard; He's a very poor man's Russel Wilson. Riley does best when he can throw to wide-open guys who have to respect his scrambling ability. I don't think he's nearly quick enough to actually succeed in a running spread, and even if he were, getting to the point where the reads are instinctual is a long process that even great option QBs often struggle with. And of course the OL recruiting and S&C would have to be completely revamped. Basically, next year turns into a rebuilding year if Doman goes to an option spread.

                      I've mentioned this several times, so I hope there's some information soon about what Doman actually plans. My prediction for next year will depend heavily on this.
                      I think there will be elements of a spread option but I don't think the offense will revolve around it I think the offense will be similar to what we saw this year only with much better play calling and execution.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Shaka View Post
                        I think there will be elements of a spread option but I don't think the offense will revolve around it I think the offense will be similar to what we saw this year only with much better play calling and execution.
                        Where does anyone think BYU is moving towards a spread option type of attack?

                        I think Doman wants a basic pro set offense and the role of a dual threat qb is for a number of quarterback draws and for utilizing his legs to keep plays alive and scramble when available. I think the goal of a dual threat qb is to utilize the running portion enough to force opposing defenses to be concerned about it.
                        Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
                        -General George S. Patton

                        I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
                        -DOCTOR Wuap

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Shaka View Post
                          I think there will be elements of a spread option but I don't think the offense will revolve around it I think the offense will be similar to what we saw this year only with much better play calling and execution.
                          That's what I'm hoping. The inverted veer looked pretty good in the bowl game the few times they ran it, and it's a pretty good choice given the OL's issues (the veer uses gap blocking, so it's not as much of a problem if the OL are all 50 pounds overweight).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Shaka View Post
                            I don't think it all rests on Riley. I think several off the field issues have been sorted out:

                            a) No QB controversy

                            b) Team leadership and the path to becoming a leader has been resolved. I really believe that BYU will have very strong leaders going into next season. I think Van Noy will play a significant leadership role.

                            c) Coach maturation. Doman will work extra hard to learn how to balance his dual roles. He will also solidify the playbook exhibit growth as a play caller.

                            d) Bronco will have learned from the Jake situation and will do a better job handling the highly touted recruit.
                            I think much of what you say is true, and obviously I am bully that BYU will have a good team next year and likely a legit team ranked somwhere between 10 and 15 that finishes the year 11-2. However, to be a BCS caliber team they need to be a legit top 10 club and I think Riley needs to be a better passer than he is or can be for BYU to get that good.

                            I am not disapointed with what I expect they will be.
                            Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
                            -General George S. Patton

                            I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
                            -DOCTOR Wuap

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
                              Where does anyone think BYU is moving towards a spread option type of attack?

                              I think Doman wants a basic pro set offense and the role of a dual threat qb is for a number of quarterback draws and for utilizing his legs to keep plays alive and scramble when available. I think the goal of a dual threat qb is to utilize the running portion enough to force opposing defenses to be concerned about it.
                              It was in the same Harmon article that the anti-Nelson family libel was. I admit that's not a good source.

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