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  • "Bullying" gay youth

    I am extremely sympathetic to the families and friends of those gay youth whose recent suicides have been widely covered by national media. Bullying gay people because of their sexuality is a shameful but all-too-common occurrence that we have all witnessed. To my lasting shame, as a youth growing up in Montana, I participated in this sickening culture. Years later, at a HS reunion, I would learn that some of the youth who also participated in the demeaning of gay people in our town were themselves gay. Discussing our past actions, it was difficult to understand how we let ourselves do things that, given a few more years of growing up, would become so obviously despicable. Yet as much as I would like to think that our country is evolving in this ethical problem, one need only spend an hour playing an internet game like MW2 to see that the culture of hate is alive in well among the youth today, which means that many from my generation, rather than recognizing the errors of our youth, have chosen to pass them to the next generation. It is sickening.

    That said, I think it is worth noting that there is a lot more than "bullying" that contributes to these tragic suicides. In particular, with the case of the young college student whose sex act was secretly videotaped and broadcast over the internet, I wonder if the term 'bullying' should be applied here. Obviously the deception was a terrible thing, and would have been regardless of the sexual preference of the young man who later took his life. But nothing I have read indicates that this gross impractical joke was perpetrated against the boy because he was gay. I witnessed some pretty stupid antics as a college freshman, and some of them could have resulted in tragic accidents, but had anything terrible happened, it would have been the result of young stupidity, and not some calculated design to destroy someone. I wonder if the tragedy of this youth isn't similar. I wonder if calling it 'bullying' doesn't add an unnecessary layer of culpability on a couple of young people who will already have to live with the consequences of their stupidity.

    More specifically, I worry that by calling something 'bullying' that isn't in fact bullying, if we draw attention away from a different, but equally serious problem -- we live in a culture in which too many young gay people have been taught to feel utterly ashamed of who they are. Consider how the situation might be different had a straight young man's sexual conquest been broadcast on the internet. Would it have been embarrassing? Probably. But would it have ended in a tragic suicide? Probably not.

    The tragedy of these suicides, and any other acts of self-loathing, has less to do with any single act that might push someone over the edge, and more to do with the larger culture that teaches these gay youth to hate themselves, to be ashamed of what they are, and to believe that their friends and family and community will reject them if they ever find out about their sexuality. Did this boy end his life because he was teased mercilessly, or because now the world would know his darkest secret, that he was gay?

    This is the irreconcilable difference that exists between the gay community and the leadership of the LDS church. No matter how much the church decries 'bullying' and hate crimes, they will continue to teach that gay people should be ashamed of their gay behavior, and that society at large should not accept the legitimacy of a gay life. That isn't bullying... it is worse.

  • #2
    In terms of "they will continue to teach that gay people should be ashamed of their gay behavior", if you are referring to gay relations, how is that any different than teaching against any other sin? First off, every large christian domination in the world teaches the same thing, gay relations are a sin. Second off, how is teaching something is a sin worse than bullying?

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    • #3
      While I can agree with a majority of your post, I cannot chuck it up to "Youth Stupidity". Do I think he was bullying?? There are various ways a person can be bullyed. I do think the roommate had in mind to embarrass his roommate to an extreme level and looked for more then multiple times to video tape his roommate.. That seems to go beyond a normal level prank..

      Bullying?? I guess that can be debated.. At least in my opinion..

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Maximus View Post
        In terms of "they will continue to teach that gay people should be ashamed of their gay behavior", if you are referring to gay relations, how is that any different than teaching against any other sin? First off, every large christian domination in the world teaches the same thing, gay relations are a sin. Second off, how is teaching something is a sin worse than bullying?
        Yes, I am talking about all churches that teach that the acts of a gay life are to be rejected, marginalized and the source of shame. All of the churches that teach this stuff help to foster a culture in which bullying thrives. What is bullying other than the physical manifestation of the very sentiment that church leaders teach? "Acting on your sexual desire is a sexual perversion that should bring you shame." That idea can be said over the pulpit. That idea can make someone the butt of social ridicule. That idea can be delivered with a fist. Homosexuality would not be a source of bullying if so many people didn't think that it was such a shameful perversion, and it is largely the churches that create and maintain that aspect of our culture.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by dabrockster View Post
          While I can agree with a majority of your post, I cannot chuck it up to "Youth Stupidity". Do I think he was bullying?? There are various ways a person can be bullyed. I do think the roommate had in mind to embarrass his roommate to an extreme level and looked for more then multiple times to video tape his roommate.. That seems to go beyond a normal level prank..

          Bullying?? I guess that can be debated.. At least in my opinion..
          It does. I'm just not ready to conclude that the extremeness of the prank was because the victim was gay. In other words, it wouldn't be unheard of if a bad roommate were to broadcast the sex act of his straight roommate. It would be a terrible prank either way, and it might be bullying, but I'm not sure that it was a hate crime.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
            Yes, I am talking about all churches that teach that the acts of a gay life are to be rejected, marginalized and the source of shame. All of the churches that teach this stuff help to foster a culture in which bullying thrives. What is bullying other than the physical manifestation of the very sentiment that church leaders teach? "Acting on your sexual desire is a sexual perversion that should bring you shame." That idea can be said over the pulpit. That idea can make someone the butt of social ridicule. That idea can be delivered with a fist. Homosexuality would not be a source of bullying if so many people didn't think that it was such a shameful perversion, and it is largely the churches that create and maintain that aspect of our culture.
            So does that mean the church has to reject the idea that gay sex is a sin to not be seen as a means of furthering bullying of homosexuals?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Maximus View Post
              So does that mean the church has to reject the idea that gay sex is a sin to not be seen as a means of furthering bullying of homosexuals?
              Yup.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
                Yup.
                So is the church bullying those who have hetero sex before marriage?

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                • #9
                  The term "bullying" has been hijacked to the point that it is losing all meaning.
                  "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                  "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                  "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                    The term "bullying" has been hijacked to the point that it is losing all meaning.
                    Like "homophobia"?
                    Everything in life is an approximation.

                    http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Maximus View Post
                      So is the church bullying those who have hetero sex before marriage?
                      If they constantly referred to it as a perversion and unnatural, I suppose that would constitute bullying.
                      "The mind is not a boomerang. If you throw it too far it will not come back." ~ Tom McGuane

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Maximus View Post
                        So is the church bullying those who have hetero sex before marriage?
                        It bears repeating, but I'm not saying that churches bully. Bullying is when individuals tease and hurt someone because they can.

                        Churches create the cultural climate that makes gay people hate and feel ashamed of themselves. I think that this climate contributes more to young gay suicides than the acts of individual bullies.

                        To your question about churches and the teachings about heterosexual sex before marriage I have a couple of things to point out. The 'church' in some Muslim countries permits some extremely violent 'bullying' if people have premarital sex, saving the harshest abuse for women. There is a LOT of unnecessary suffering that results from the guilt young people feel over any kind of engagement with their sexual equipment. When I think of all of the years I spent in and out of the Bishop's and SP's office, and the guilt that went with that, I have no problem at all calling that a form of abuse.

                        The reason these teachings don't create a wider climate of heterosexual bullying is simply because heterosexuals make up the vast majority of people. Bullying is about picking on someone in a weaker position. Gay people are easier to bully because, as a minority, their lifestyle was easier to demonize to the majority.

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                        • #13
                          Hey Robin, if you're interested in the topic of bullying, I suggest Emily Bazelon's continuing series over at Slate. She's been researching the topic in relation to some of the big cases that have been in the media lately. It won't surprise you to learn that the circumstances are always a lot more complicated than they first appear to be, even when bullying is a part of it. Interesting stuff.
                          Kids in general these days seem more socially retarded...

                          None of them date. They hang out. They text. They sit in the same car or room and don't say a word...they text. Then, they go home and whack off to internet porn.

                          I think that's the sad truth about why these kids are retards.

                          --Portland Ute

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                          • #14
                            Robin,

                            Thinking about the MW2 culture of hate (I even PMed SIEQ and briefly told him about it in case he wanted to research it), I am appalled at the racism, gay-bashing, and just outright bullying that you hear on there. I'm been called
                            Spoiler for vile speech:
                            "motherfucker" or "fag" or "nigger"
                            or "40 year old virgin living in your mom's basement" by so many 11 year olds now that I'm convinced that the unfettered anonymity of the internet is doing precious little to quash this culture among our youth. Rather, I see it as exacerbating the problem that was already there. When I went to school in rural-trending-towards-suburban Georgia in the late 80's, if you called someone who wasn't your friend a "faggot" you knew that there was going to be a fight. The ability to just spew whatever hatred out there that you want, without fear of reprisal, makes what was our culture of hatred shared among friends, out in the open.

                            Spoiler for Terrible MW2 conversation:
                            I've been playing a bunch with these guys from Jamaica. The other night, some kids were complaining about losing to "a bunch of foreign niggers."

                            One of the guys on my team then said, "How about I follow your ip address with my tcp/ip sniffer, come over to your house, rape your mom while I make you watch, and then kill you? I don't work; I got time to find you."

                            The other team then quickly exited the chat room, while everyone else laughed. I was appalled again. I said, "That was a bit offsides." He said back, "Now that little bastard will think twice about dropping racist shit on me."


                            All of this anonymity, as Zygmunt Bauman puts it, leaves us in the postmodern space of the city:

                            City life is a life morally impoverished and thus free to be subjected to unchallenged rule of other than moral criteria. It is a joyously embraced choice - urban relations are anonymous and non-committal.
                            Also, when we look at a popular culture that embraces a minority non-sub-altern style as the apogee of cool, and that style chooses to denigrate, not the majority, but sub-altern segments of society, I see little wonder in reflecting on these issues as a reflection of cultural attitudes which manifest themselves in the hate-filled speech of MW2.

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                            [YOUTUBE]CNj0Rbxb_5U[/YOUTUBE]
                            "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

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                            • #15
                              I've never read a story like this about a young lesbian. I'm sure it happens, and is a tragedy in every instance, but I've never seen one in the media. It's probably because most adolescent suicide victims are male.

                              Why did the NJ case receive so much media attention? I think it has an easy, but tragic, narrative. Unfortunately, I'm sure it will be on Law and Order next season, with east coast, educated, college student perps and a gay individual as the victim.

                              On the media coverage: Native Americans (males) have the highest suicide rate as a demographic in the US, but as far as I've ever read (never seen a story on it), it gets zero media coverage.

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