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Terror, the Quran and the Times Square bomber

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  • Terror, the Quran and the Times Square bomber

    I just spent parts of four days working in the Conde Nast building just off of Times Square and a couple of short blocks from where this jackoff would have set off the fireball from hell.

    It never once crossed my mind in those days as it never does and it probably won't unless, Allah forbid, something like this happens when I'm in the vicinity. But it's been on my mind that the places these douchenozzles target are the places I go almost every week of my life. Airports, planes, train stations, trains and central locations in NYC, DC, London and other capitals.

    So I paid attention when McTerrorist Faizal Shahzad was sentenced today.

    And there is nothing more disturbing to me than this excerpt from the CNN article on the decision and the Judge's comments:

    'Saying he appears to be someone "who is capable of education," she said she hopes he will spend time in prison thinking of whether the Quran wants you to kill people."'

    This is the lie that we're going to have to come to terms with at some point but hundreds of thousands of people like this Judge actually believe that the Quran DOESN'T want him to kill people, and that if he spends time in jail thinking about it that he will realize this and then he can advocate for the true message of the Quran.

    The Quran is laced throughout with justifications for violence against the unbeliever - nearly every surah contains some type of justification for murdering and/or subjugating people who don't accept Islam. The Quran's message of peace is almost exclusively directed to the Ummah, while unbelievers are offered either violence or subjugation.

    Violence is written in the DNA of Islam. To the extent that there are tens of millions of peace-loving Muslims (there are, including friends of mine in Jordan who I have visited and friends from Iran who bought me an approved translation of the Quran and read it with me) it is because their innate human goodness leads them to filter the violence out of the religion they embrace.

    But for those who don't want to do that, they don't have to go distorting the message of the Quran or misinterpreting its language. It's there for the taking and no amount of sitting in prison and pondering the "real" meaning of the Quran is going to change that.
    Ute-ī sunt fīmī differtī

    It can't all be wedding cake.

  • #2
    Originally posted by oxcoug View Post
    Violence is written in the DNA of Islam. To the extent that there are tens of millions of peace-loving Muslims (there are, including friends of mine in Jordan who I have visited and friends from Iran who bought me an approved translation of the Quran and read it with me) it is because their innate human goodness leads them to filter the violence out of the religion they embrace.

    But for those who don't want to do that, they don't have to go distorting the message of the Quran or misinterpreting its language. It's there for the taking and no amount of sitting in prison and pondering the "real" meaning of the Quran is going to change that.
    Good post.

    You could say the same thing about pretty much every religion (substituting other words for violence as needed). It works best when people take the good parts of the religion and reject the unhelpful or downright evil parts.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
      Good post.

      You could say the same thing about pretty much every religion (substituting other words for violence as needed). It works best when people take the good parts of the religion and reject the unhelpful or downright evil parts.
      What violence is there in the words of Christ?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Maximus View Post
        What violence is there in the words of Christ?
        You could justify almost anything with the Old Testament as a guidebook.

        There are plenty of scriptures in the New Testament that can be (and were) used to justify slavery.
        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Maximus View Post
          What violence is there in the words of Christ?
          As evil as the Old Testament is, Jesus invented hell. It could be argued that the NT is even more violent than the OT.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
            You could justify almost anything with the Old Testament as a guidebook.

            There are plenty of scriptures in the New Testament that can be (and were) used to justify slavery.
            The Old Testament is much more comparable to the Quran than the NT, I agree.

            anyways, Which verses in the NT do you speak of?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by woot View Post
              As evil as the Old Testament is, Jesus invented hell. It could be argued that the NT is even more violent than the OT.
              eh? How is Hell violent? Or, how does presenting the idea of hill direct violence towards others?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Maximus View Post
                What violence is there in the words of Christ?
                Here's some violent stuff from 3rd Nephi, most of it has something to do with Jesus. Not my list, from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible website.

                3 Nephi

                When Jesus died, the inhabitants of many great cities died with him. Entire cities were sunk into the ocean, or were burned, or destroyed by earthquakes. 8:8-10, 14

                The voice (who finally identifies himself as Jesus Christ) brags about burning to death, drowning, and burying alive all of the inhabitants of 16 large cities. 9:3-15

                Jesus says that whoever does not believe in him and is not baptized will be damned to hell. 11:34

                "Ye shall be ... as a lion among the flocks of sheep, who ... teareth in pieces." 20:16

                "Thou shalt beat in pieces many people." 20:19

                God will kill those who don't repent with "the sword of justice." 20:20

                "And my people ... shall be ... as a lion among the flocks of sheep, who ... teareth in pieces." 21:12

                God will destroy entire cities. 21:18

                God "will execute vengeance and fury upon" those who do not believe in Jesus. 21:20-21

                "The resurrection of damnation" 26:5

                "He that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire." 27:17

                "Wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein."

                Most people are going to hell. 27:33

                Those who won't listen to Jesus will wish they were never born. 28:34-35

                "Wo unto" whoever denies Christ or his latter day revelations. God will show such persons no mercy. 29:5-7

                If you want to talk about Mormonism and violence, here you go:

                [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_violence"]Mormonism and violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:GeneralJosephSmithAddress-JohnHafen.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9b/GeneralJosephSmithAddress-JohnHafen.jpg/200px-GeneralJosephSmithAddress-JohnHafen.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/9b/GeneralJosephSmithAddress-JohnHafen.jpg/200px-GeneralJosephSmithAddress-JohnHafen.jpg[/ame]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
                  Here's some violent stuff from 3rd Nephi, most of it has something to do with Jesus. Not my list, from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible website.

                  3 Nephi

                  When Jesus died, the inhabitants of many great cities died with him. Entire cities were sunk into the ocean, or were burned, or destroyed by earthquakes. 8:8-10, 14

                  The voice (who finally identifies himself as Jesus Christ) brags about burning to death, drowning, and burying alive all of the inhabitants of 16 large cities. 9:3-15

                  Jesus says that whoever does not believe in him and is not baptized will be damned to hell. 11:34

                  "Ye shall be ... as a lion among the flocks of sheep, who ... teareth in pieces." 20:16

                  "Thou shalt beat in pieces many people." 20:19

                  God will kill those who don't repent with "the sword of justice." 20:20

                  "And my people ... shall be ... as a lion among the flocks of sheep, who ... teareth in pieces." 21:12

                  God will destroy entire cities. 21:18

                  God "will execute vengeance and fury upon" those who do not believe in Jesus. 21:20-21

                  "The resurrection of damnation" 26:5

                  "He that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire." 27:17

                  "Wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein."

                  Most people are going to hell. 27:33

                  Those who won't listen to Jesus will wish they were never born. 28:34-35

                  "Wo unto" whoever denies Christ or his latter day revelations. God will show such persons no mercy. 29:5-7

                  If you want to talk about Mormonism and violence, here you go:

                  Mormonism and violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                  talk about reaching....

                  Are verses saying the wicked will be damned really akin to calling for violence against the non believer?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Maximus View Post
                    The Old Testament is much more comparable to the Quran than the NT, I agree.

                    anyways, Which verses in the NT do you speak of?
                    For starters:

                    http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=eph...version=nrsvae

                    http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=col...version=nrsvae

                    http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=1+t...version=nrsvae
                    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                      You could justify almost anything with the Old Testament as a guidebook.

                      There are plenty of scriptures in the New Testament that can be (and were) used to justify slavery.
                      Good point. The book that most of Christianity uses as the ultimate religious/moral guide got the issue of slavery wrong -- taught we had the right to own other people and treat them like property.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Maximus View Post
                        eh? How is Hell violent? Or, how does presenting the idea of hill direct violence towards others?
                        Christianity could be described as a revenge fantasy. For instance, on CB you might notice that karma is spoken of constantly. If any one of them actually thought about it for 2 seconds they'd admit they don't believe in karma, but the concept mollifies their impotent rage. Christianity went about solving the problem in a different way, promising that people who get away with bad things have their reward in hell. This also gets mentioned pretty frequently, but less so because of the injunction against judging others. So, karma is the replacement.

                        In addition to the revenge fantasy that it allows for believers, threats of hellfire and its eternal torture provide a convenient way to get people to do what you want. At least all the barbarism that god commanded in the OT ended at death. the supernatural realm outlined in the NT provides infinitely more.

                        And yeah, Jesus also endorses beating your slaves. Still nothing compared to his invention of hell.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by woot View Post
                          Christianity could be described as a revenge fantasy. For instance, on CB you might notice that karma is spoken of constantly. If any one of them actually thought about it for 2 seconds they'd admit they don't believe in karma, but the concept mollifies their impotent rage. Christianity went about solving the problem in a different way, promising that people who get away with bad things have their reward in hell. This also gets mentioned pretty frequently, but less so because of the injunction against judging others. So, karma is the replacement.

                          In addition to the revenge fantasy that it allows for believers, threats of hellfire and its eternal torture provide a convenient way to get people to do what you want. At least all the barbarism that god commanded in the OT ended at death. the supernatural realm outlined in the NT provides infinitely more.

                          And yeah, Jesus also endorses beating your slaves. Still nothing compared to his invention of hell.
                          Well if you think the NT is just made up false doctrine, well good for you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Maximus View Post
                            talk about reaching....

                            Are verses saying the wicked will be damned really akin to calling for violence against the non believer?
                            I don't know. Why doesn't the BOM say that the wicked will go to the Telestial Kingdom, a place that is far better than this earthly sphere, and that if we could see, we would consider killing ourselves to get there?

                            Probably because that was all pre-correlation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
                              I don't know. Why doesn't the BOM say that the wicked will go to the Telestial Kingdom, a place that is far better than this earthly sphere, and that if we could see, we would consider killing ourselves to get there?

                              Probably because that was all pre-correlation.
                              Pre correlation, as in...?

                              Anyways, probably for the same reason a lot of doctrine not taught in the Bible. Not everything is revealed in the Book of Mormon.

                              Comment

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