Did you see this Trib article?

[fusnik]

http://sltrib.com/sltrib/home/500038...wrote.html.csp

Do illegals hurt the average American?

[The Fourth Nephite]

http://sltrib.com/sltrib/home/500038...wrote.html.csp

Do illegals hurt the average American?

I put myself through college by trimming palm trees. If illegals had gone through a neighborhood before me, I couldn't give my services away.

[wuapinmon]

I put myself through college by trimming palm trees. If illegals had gone through a neighborhood before me, I couldn't give my services away.

Well, only a moron goes behind someone else offering the same services. You're not griping about illegals, you're griping about competition.

[Tim]

http://sltrib.com/sltrib/home/500038...wrote.html.csp

Do illegals hurt the average American?

The answer is a resounding no. Illegal immigration doesn't hurt America.

[il Padrino Ute]

The answer is a resounding no. Illegal immigration doesn't hurt America.

Illegal immigrants that steal social security numbers, pay no taxes yet take advantage of social programs doesn't hurt America?

[Tim]

Illegal immigrants that steal social security numbers, pay no taxes yet take advantage of social programs doesn't hurt America?

LOL! You're not even reading what you're writing, are you? You're just typing it as it comes out of your brain, no appeal to common sense or logic whatsoever!

If someone obtains a social security number it's so they can work legitimately, which means their taxes get withheld. And if their taxes are being withheld, the social programs they participate in are legitimately theirs. Perhaps your issue is more with poor people than with immigration status.

Besides, most illegal immigrants who obtain social security cards do so from people who fraud them into thinking that the documents are legitimate. The way you worded it would suggest that the person crossing the border illegally is somehow breaking into peoples' homes and stealing their social security cards. That's most definitely not the case.

[il Padrino Ute]

LOL! You're not even reading what you're writing, are you? You're just typing it as it comes out of your brain, no appeal to common sense or logic whatsoever!

If someone obtains a social security number it's so they can work legitimately, which means their taxes get withheld. And if their taxes are being withheld, the social programs they participate in are legitimately theirs. Perhaps your issue is more with poor people than with immigration status.

Besides, most illegal immigrants who obtain social security cards do so from people who fraud them into thinking that the documents are legitimate. The way you worded it would suggest that the person crossing the border illegally is somehow breaking into peoples' homes and stealing their social security cards. That's most definitely not the case.

You're saying that I am not using logic, but just letting the words roll out? Yet you are the one that said that illegal immigration doesn't hurt America?

I'll concede that I worded it poorly, but the fact of the matter is that there are illegal immigrants who are using stolen social security numbers. That they were duped into thinking it was legitimate is completely irrelevant. They came into the country illegally in the first place. That is the issue.

I'm all for immigration as long as it's done legally. What the fuck is wrong with that?

[Tim]

You're saying that I am not using logic, but just letting the words roll out? Yet you are the one that said that illegal immigration doesn't hurt America?

I'll concede that I worded it poorly, but the fact of the matter is that there are illegal immigrants who are using stolen social security numbers. That they were duped into thinking it was legitimate is completely irrelevant. They came into the country illegally in the first place. That is the issue.

I'm all for immigration as long as it's done legally. What the fuck is wrong with that?

The **** that's wrong with that is that you bitch and bitch and bitch about illegal immigrants, but you also refuse to support changes that would make it so that people COULD immigrate legally. You refuse to look at the reasons WHY people immigrate illegally. You sit on the side and complain without looking at the complete picture. You're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand that has no basis in common sense, and that doesn't actually reflect the complexity by which the immigration scenario in our country operates.

Yours is a special kind of sophistry. You ignore countless pieces of evidence that disagree with your pre-conceived notion that the situation is bad. You carry no evidence that demonstrates the complete picture of the immigration situation's positives and negatives, instead relying on raw and visceral emotions aimed not at painting an honest picture, but at simply spreading the fear.

Worst of all, you're filled with hate. Not just "football rivalry" hate, but the classic kind, the disgusting, immoral kind. You have you love for the truth in any scenario. You aim only to protect your own internally-developed beliefs by fabricating a reality based on nothing more than your deepest fears. And you've made yourself into an enemy of all those who wish to see things openly, to study things out and try to understand the true shape of things before passing judgment. That might be the strongest sign that your ability to reason and learn has devolved to an unrivaled low.

It's not an issue just because you think it's one, IPU. Provide some evidence to back up your claim. I thought this article linked by Japan Coug on CB recently was especially good in that it clearly articulates a number of relevant data points in the immigration situation: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...6sxEtQWDzg5cGw

[il Padrino Ute]

The **** that's wrong with that is that you bitch and bitch and bitch about illegal immigrants, but you also refuse to support changes that would make it so that people COULD immigrate legally. You refuse to look at the reasons WHY people immigrate illegally. You sit on the side and complain without looking at the complete picture. You're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand that has no basis in common sense, and that doesn't actually reflect the complexity by which the immigration scenario in our country operates.

Yours is a special kind of sophistry. You ignore countless pieces of evidence that disagree with your pre-conceived notion that the situation is bad. You carry no evidence that demonstrates the complete picture of the immigration situation's positives and negatives, instead relying on raw and visceral emotions aimed not at painting an honest picture, but at simply spreading the fear.

Worst of all, you're filled with hate. Not just "football rivalry" hate, but the classic kind, the disgusting, immoral kind. You have you love for the truth in any scenario. You aim only to protect your own internally-developed beliefs by fabricating a reality based on nothing more than your deepest fears. And you've made yourself into an enemy of all those who wish to see things openly, to study things out and try to understand the true shape of things before passing judgment. That might be the strongest sign that your ability to reason and learn has devolved to an unrivaled low.

It's not an issue just because you think it's one, IPU. Provide some evidence to back up your claim. I thought this article linked by Japan Coug on CB recently was especially good in that it clearly articulates a number of relevant data points in the immigration situation: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...6sxEtQWDzg5cGw

So, using your logic based on your posts, you support illegal immigration, which means that you completely ignore the 12th Article of Faith. Joseph Smith must have really been full of hate as well, eh?

Speaking of hate, take a look in the mirror, Tim. Everything you accuse me of describes you as well. You are intolerant of my politics and make idiotic accusations about me, such as saying that I am filled with a disgusting immoral kind of hate. If that's how you see it, that's fine. The difference between you and I is that I will admit that there are things of which I am intolerant, but you think yourself above all of it.

You want me to provide evidence to back up my claim that illegals are bankrupting social programs? Let's take a look at California alone: http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigr...caillegals.htm If that's not good enough for you, well, I don't care. That's what you are asking for.

I never claimed it was an issue because I say it is; nor is it not an issue because you claim it isn't. I can play that game as well.

As I said, I am all for legal immigration, despite your claim otherwise. You are for illegal immigration. Bottom line, my stance is the correct one and it seems to really bother you, otherwise you wouldn't feel so inclined to say what you do.

[Tim]

So, using your logic based on your posts, you support illegal immigration, which means that you completely ignore the 12th Article of Faith. Joseph Smith must have really been full of hate as well, eh?

Speaking of hate, take a look in the mirror, Tim. Everything you accuse me of describes you as well. You are intolerant of my politics and make idiotic accusations about me, such as saying that I am filled with a disgusting immoral kind of hate. If that's how you see it, that's fine. The difference between you and I is that I will admit that there are things of which I am intolerant, but you think yourself above all of it.

You want me to provide evidence to back up my claim that illegals are bankrupting social programs? Let's take a look at California alone: http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigr...caillegals.htm If that's not good enough for you, well, I don't care. That's what you are asking for.

I never claimed it was an issue because I say it is; nor is it not an issue because you claim it isn't. I can play that game as well.

As I said, I am all for legal immigration, despite your claim otherwise. You are for illegal immigration. Bottom line, my stance is the correct one and it seems to really bother you, otherwise you wouldn't feel so inclined to say what you do.

You've now extended your chain of lies by suggesting that I'm in favor of illegal immigration and that I don't think there's an issue. Back to that tricky little devil called "common sense" that keeps baffling you, I guess: Just because I don't think illegal immigration is destroying our country doesn't mean that I support illegal immigration. I have always favored legal immigration. And just because I don't think it's a black and white issue like you do doesn't mean that I think it's not an issue. I simply think the issue is complex and multi-faceted, and there are so many elements within it that it's irrational to try and determine if there could even BE a right answer to the question of how to solve it.

I support an immigration system that allows the labor market to be the determining factor in deciding how many people should come in to the system. I refuse to place the full burden of the issue on people who came looking for work when it was available and would've entered legally if we had made a practical way for them to do so. So I support first and foremost a revised immigration system that makes it easier for people to work enter legally when there is work available. That is what I support. Do you support that?

Don't bring religion into this, IPU. I could easily quote the words of the prophets or scriptures to try and dispute your views, but that's just a tacky and cheap form of dialogue. Stop doing it.

I tolerate all types of politics and beliefs. I have no issue with your politics, I have an issue with how you spread them through the use of lies and sensationalism. I repeat for the umpteenth time on this and other sites: I am completely tolerant of your political views. I am completely intolerant of your use of lies, hatred, and fear to spread those views.

[Uncle Ted]

Y'all might want to watch last week's Stossel which was on the immigration debate...

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/st...ylist_id=87050

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/st...ylist_id=87050

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/st...ylist_id=87050

[thesaint258]

Worst of all, you're filled with hate. Not just "football rivalry" hate, but the classic kind, the disgusting, immoral kind. You have you love for the truth in any scenario. You aim only to protect your own internally-developed beliefs by fabricating a reality based on nothing more than your deepest fears. And you've made yourself into an enemy of all those who wish to see things openly, to study things out and try to understand the true shape of things before passing judgment. That might be the strongest sign that your ability to reason and learn has devolved to an unrivaled low.

Tim, I have to say, you're off base here. IPU is a good guy, and "filled with hate" is not a phrase I would associate with him, or anyone else here for that matter.

[Goatnapper'96]

http://sltrib.com/sltrib/home/500038...wrote.html.csp

Do illegals hurt the average American?

For the record I am not and never have been "thudwhack."

My answer to you is that it would be based upon how one defines "hurt." I believe America is that city set upon a hill. I hate the concept of a fence that seeks to keep the benefits of economic and political freedom isolated for those lucky enough to be born here. America is not about pure bloodlines but about the idea that one can improve their lot in life for themselves and their children, the sacrifices immigrants, both legal and illegal, go through to get here reinforces that romantic vision I have of America. I believe that the opportunities unleashed by liberty and freedom are endless and cannot express my frustration when I see a fence on our border. That clashes with my vision of what this place is about.

Saying that there is some cost undoubtedly collectively shared by the American people to pay for some of the progressive safety net programs that illegals and/or their legal children participate. While I would like to believe in my romantic version, the reality might be that while it is a city set upon a hill, the new blood so neccesary to remind us all of where we all came from must be better regulated. If our society is going to extend these safety net programs, it must be done in a way that ensures we have the resources to do such.

IMO, immigration both legal and illegal keeps the flame of liberty burning bright but such platitudes don't pay the bills and the bills are beginning to concern many of us.

[Goatnapper'96]

Tim, I have to say, you're off base here. IPU is a good guy, and "filled with hate" is not a phrase I would associate with him, or anyone else here for that matter.

Timmy is an enlightened liberal and as such they love to hear opinions that agree with them and know anyone who doesn't agree with them is clearly motivated by sinister sentiments. Because if their motivations were pure, as theirs are, then they too would be enlightened and see the that "there is a right way to live and be happy!"

[Flystripper]

Illegal immigrants that steal social security numbers, pay no taxes yet take advantage of social programs doesn't hurt America?

if they have a fake social security number and are living below the poverty level what taxes are they not contributing?