Why doesn't it surprise me

[SoCalCoug]

That I didn't get a single reasonable answer?

http://www.cougarboard.com/noframes/...tml?id=5482513

Seriously, am I misreading the responses?

[byu71]

Why would one reasonably suspect a teenager of drinking. They still stop them for taillight infractions and then check them out.

I thought the cops can only ask if they have picked them up for something else.

Do you think a cop who stops me for speeding should be able to ask for my license and registration?

[The_Tick]

But he is stopping you because of the speeding. That was the reason for you to be pulled over. Not skin color.

I would be fine with the bill if everyone had to be able to prove residency.

When I go to Canada I have my passport with me at all times.

When I go to Mexico I have my passport with me at all times.

I don't want any trouble.

What I do find funny is that Mexico has one of the toughest policies in regards to their borders and "illegals" that come to Mexico. Add on top of that that an American citizen can't legally even purchase land there is semi-absurd. (But that is another topic entirely.)

[venkman]

Why would one reasonably suspect a teenager of drinking. They still stop them for taillight infractions and then check them out.

I thought the cops can only ask if they have picked them up for something else.

Do you think a cop who stops me for speeding should be able to ask for my license and registration?

Pretty much. They can't just randomly stop someone because they "look Mexican", they have to have stopped someone first for a previous violation (lawful contact).

The hysterics against this law seem unfounded to me. There was an editorial in the Des News today from the head of the conservative Sutherland Institute: the guy wrote, "Arizona is officially a police state."

As a libertarian-ish person, I'm very much against a "papers please" police state. My record here is one of suspicion and criticism of police power and the militarization of police. But this seems like a very reasonable law. Basically, they're giving the local police authority to enforce existing federal law (something the feds won't do) and outlawing sanctuary cities.

Honestly, I don't think this will end up having that big of an impact if it stands as we think it could have. The democrats have probably been more successful than this law will ever be in curbing illegals in AZ due to their mock indignation of the past few days.

[venkman]

But he is stopping you because of the speeding. That was the reason for you to be pulled over. Not skin color.

And in that case, everyone needs their "papers". If the cop stops someone and they have no ID, or a fake looking DL or a Mexican DL, then that's suspicious and they'd go from there. If a hispanic person is pulled over and their DL looks legit then they're ok, it would be no different than for a white person. Now are they more likely to get pulled over for speeding if they're "brown"? Maybe, but that probably happens anyway, this law won't change that.

[beefytee]

And in that case, everyone needs their "papers". If the cop stops someone and they have no ID, or a fake looking DL or a Mexican DL, then that's suspicious and they'd go from there. If a hispanic person is pulled over and their DL looks legit then they're ok, it would be no different than for a white person. Now are they more likely to get pulled over for speeding if they're "brown"? Maybe, but that probably happens anyway, this law won't change that.

Why wouldn't they just claim to be citizens and not need any ID? Or do citizens need to be carrying around a US birth certificate or passport?

The police have no way of knowing otherwise.

As someone who has gone through the immigration process. The immigration folks can't even keep track of their people let alone other departments.

[Indy Coug]

Here's one good reason: They don't speak English.

[venkman]

Why wouldn't they just claim to be citizens and not need any ID? Or do citizens need to be carrying around a US birth certificate or passport?

The police have no way of knowing otherwise.

As someone who has gone through the immigration process. The immigration folks can't even keep track of their people let alone other departments.

I was speaking specifically of of a traffic stop. You better have your drivers license.

In the case of just walking around, they just can't stop you and ask for your ID. You obviously don't have to carry ID if you're a citizen if you're just walking around, but if you do something wrong and the police stop you they'll want to find out who you are. That's how it is now anyway. If they suspect you're illegal after talking with you then they go from there.

Point is, cops just can't randomly stop you and make you prove you're legal, which is how opponents are characterizing the bill. If this law does give them that power then I'm against it, but everything I've read leads me to believe that's not the case.

[Uncle Ted]

But he is stopping you because of the speeding. That was the reason for you to be pulled over. Not skin color.

Note that it seems that the AZ law has been recently changed so it is more of a secondary law.

I would be fine with the bill if everyone had to be able to prove residency.

When I go to Canada I have my passport with me at all times.

When I go to Mexico I have my passport with me at all times.

I don't want any trouble.

Soon you make get to carry your national ID card containing your photo and biometric signature. This sounds like an enhanced social security card.

[Uncle Ted]

Why wouldn't they just claim to be citizens and not need any ID? Or do citizens need to be carrying around a US birth certificate or passport?

Looking the AZ law it seems that you can use one of the following to prove your citizenship:

1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.

2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.

3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL IDENTIFICATION.

4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

Note that #4 doesn't imply that you can use a driver license from another state. For example, my state, Texas, doesn't require you prove citizenship to get a driver license.

[SoCalCoug]

I thought the cops can only ask if they have picked them up for something else.

Not before late last night when they passed a bill changing it a little. That's sort of a huge part of why people are in an uproar - specifically because it did not limit the inquiry to only when they're stopped for something else.

[SoCalCoug]

In the case of just walking around, they just can't stop you and ask for your ID.

But they could, under the new immigration law. That's part of why people are outraged.

The change late last night might have reversed this to some degree, but there's a lot of problems with the law.

[byu71]

Not before late last night when they passed a bill changing it a little. That's sort of a huge part of why people are in an uproar - specifically because it did not limit the inquiry to only when they're stopped for something else.

Well, good for them for recognizing a flaw in the bill and correcting it. I guess all the cries of outrage about the bill will end now.

[beefytee]

Looking the AZ law it seems that you can use one of the following to prove your citizenship:

Note that #4 doesn't imply that you can use a driver license from another state. For example, my state, Texas, doesn't require you prove citizenship to get a driver license.

How does a driver's license prove citizenship? Don't they let non-citizens get licenses?

[SoCalCoug]

Well, good for them for recognizing a flaw in the bill and correcting it. I guess all the cries of outrage about the bill will end now.

Oh, if that were the only problem.