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MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 01:11 PM
I just wanted to officially express my gratitude of masterfully ignoring the current catastrophe happening in Gaza strip .Despite the fact that almost all main media have been reporting the crisis for more than one week,there has been No single post dropped by any of the board members in order to not to spoil the fun atmosphere governing in here .

Please enjoy more of the massive food ,football ,fun environment generously provided by administrators and executive committee.

Sorry for the interruption ............

UtahDan
01-03-2009, 01:20 PM
I just wanted to officially express my gratitude of masterfully ignoring the current catastrophe happening in Gaza strip .Despite the fact that almost all main media have been reporting the crisis for more than one week,there has been No single post dropped by any of the board members in order to not to spoil the fun atmosphere governing in here .

Please enjoy more of the massive food ,football ,fun environment generously provided by administrators and executive committee.

Sorry for the interruption ............

I listened to an interesting interview today on BCC radio with an Egyptian official. They, as you know, have been unsuccessfully attempting to broker a cease fire for some time.

His comments were telling. On the one hand he said that this is a problem that cannot be fixed militarily. On the other he said that Hamas very clearly wants this conflict to continue and for that reason walked away from the cease-fire bargaining table for absurd reasons. The reason, said he, is that Hamas takes its orders from Tehran and Damascus and that when, not if, but when Washington reaches an accommodation with them that this is a bargaining chip that they want to have. The more violent and intractable Hamas is, the more Tehran and Damascus can extract in a negotiation for guarantees to reign Hamas in. This is an Egyptian government official saying this. He unequivocally condemned Israel's reaction, but said that it is Tehran that is to blame in the end.

So it sounds to me like the strings are being pulled in Persia. Or maybe the evil Israeli's just woke up one day wanting to slaughter innocent Palestinians.

Coach McGuirk
01-03-2009, 01:24 PM
I just wanted to officially express my gratitude of masterfully ignoring the current catastrophe happening in Gaza strip .Despite the fact that almost all main media have been reporting the crisis for more than one week,there has been No single post dropped by any of the board members in order to not to spoil the fun atmosphere governing in here .

Please enjoy more of the massive food ,football ,fun environment generously provided by administrators and executive committee.

Sorry for the interruption ............


Do people want us meddling in foreign affairs or staying out of them. I am choosing to sit this one out. Quite frankly, I am sick of talking about this conflict. It has been going on my entire life and I am ready for it to be settled, one way or the other.

Jeff Lebowski
01-03-2009, 01:25 PM
Quite frankly, I am sick of talking about this conflict. It has been going on my entire life and I am ready for it to be settled, one way or the other.

I hope you don't really mean that.

RobinFinderson
01-03-2009, 01:25 PM
I had noticed that too. Mind you, I haven't been at a computer much the last week+, or I might have posted something.

Like the economic crisis, this crisis in the Gaza Strip seems so incredibly beyond the scope of we armchair pundits that it is hard to even know where to begin. Traditional views, whether liberal or conservative, just fall apart at the feet of this intractable suffering.

My two cents: Hamas has SOMETHING coming (wtf? launching rockets indiscriminately into Israel?), but Israel's response has been so incredibly disproportionate that I have lost just about every bit of sympathy I might otherwise muster for them.

Not all Palestinians are in love with Hamas, yet all Palestinians are prisoners of Israel. More than 400 dead so far. Lots of fathers, mothers and babies who just wanted to go about their daily business, but instead got blown to bits in the world's biggest clusterfuck. In the last week, more Palestinians have been turned into dog food than all of the murdered Israelis from the last 20 years of indiscriminate Hamas rocket firing. The disproportionate nature of these death tolls is shameful.

UtahDan
01-03-2009, 01:27 PM
Do people want us meddling in foreign affairs or staying out of them. I am choosing to sit this one out. Quite frankly, I am sick of talking about this conflict. It has been going on my entire life and I am ready for it to be settled, one way or the other.

That is just it, neither side of the conflict wants to end it or even really to win it. The political capital that it gives the Mullahs and other jihadists as well as the ultra-conservatives in the Israeli government cannot be underestimated. If the conflict ended, they would be like Churchill at the end of WWII. None of them want that. They want to hang on to power.

ERCougar
01-03-2009, 01:33 PM
I just wanted to officially express my gratitude of masterfully ignoring the current catastrophe happening in Gaza strip .Despite the fact that almost all main media have been reporting the crisis for more than one week,there has been No single post dropped by any of the board members in order to not to spoil the fun atmosphere governing in here .

Please enjoy more of the massive food ,football ,fun environment generously provided by administrators and executive committee.

Sorry for the interruption ............

I think, as others have pointed out, that no one has any idea what to say. The loss of human life is tragic and I wish I knew a way to make it stop. I just really doubt that we have a way of making that happen. I had the distinct impression as I was listening to people discuss this on the radio on the way home from work this morning that maybe everyone would be better off if we could somehow just stop meddling and let the situation work itself out (or not). Maybe that's dropping the ball as a global power, maybe it's irresponsible, but what exactly would you propose?

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 01:37 PM
I listened to an interesting interview today on BCC radio with an Egyptian official. They, as you know, have been unsuccessfully attempting to broker a cease fire for some time.

His comments were telling. On the one hand he said that this is a problem that cannot be fixed militarily. On the other he said that Hamas very clearly wants this conflict to continue and for that reason walked away from the cease-fire bargaining table for absurd reasons. The reason, said he, is that Hamas takes its orders from Tehran and Damascus and that when, not if, but when Washington reaches an accommodation with them that this is a bargaining chip that they want to have. The more violent and intractable Hamas is, the more Tehran and Damascus can extract in a negotiation for guarantees to reign Hamas in. This is an Egyptian government official saying this. He unequivocally condemned Israel's reaction, but said that it is Tehran that is to blame in the end.

So it sounds to me like the strings are being pulled in Persia. Or maybe the evil Israeli's just woke up one day wanting to slaughter innocent Palestinians.

There are always some allegations out there which need to be addressed in the right place.However palestinians had been trusting the arab governments and the us for decades ,and you could see what they have been given in return.They are literally are getting wiped off the map .I suppose people who accuse Iran of meddling and sending wrong messages are just shy of blaming the palestinians who took an action and did participate in an election and chose people who actually can fight for their cause .

I wonder who do they blame of Iran revolution? who did arouse iranians at the first place ??

Jeff Lebowski
01-03-2009, 01:40 PM
Mindful, there has been no stronger critic of Israel than me on this board (or CG). But I am just not sure what can be said about this latest chapter in the conflict. Yes, the reaction by Israel is too strong, but what does Hamas really expect will result from thousands of rockets launched from Gaza?

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 01:42 PM
I think, as others have pointed out, that no one has any idea what to say. The loss of human life is tragic and I wish I knew a way to make it stop. I just really doubt that we have a way of making that happen. I had the distinct impression as I was listening to people discuss this on the radio on the way home from work this morning that maybe everyone would be better off if we could somehow just stop meddling and let the situation work itself out (or not). Maybe that's dropping the ball as a global power, maybe it's irresponsible, but what exactly would you propose?

Stop meddling ?? you probably dont mean stop sending the F-16 and super modern tanks provided by your taxs?

Coach McGuirk
01-03-2009, 01:44 PM
I hope you don't really mean that.

I am not sure what you hope I don't mean, your dudeliness. I am ready for this conflict to be over. I would rather they be able to talk this out, but from what I can tell in my 36 years of life, they are not going to be able to settle this peacefully.

Let me just add, I know Israel does not have clean hands in this. No one does when it comes to war. Eventually this will turn to a full on war. I am not advocating this, I am predicting this.

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 01:53 PM
Mindful, there has been no stronger critic of Israel than me on this board (or CG). But I am just not sure what can be said about this latest chapter in the conflict. Yes, the reaction by Israel is too strong, but what does Hamas really expect will result from thousands of rockets launched from Gaza?

Well you were my number one suspect to crash the fun party .and thanks god you didnot disappoint me .

Jeff..people have been denied food, fuel ,water and medicine since june 2007 . Does it make any sense to you ? The most concern is they have been literally isolated from the world .They need to be able to live in that area.
They no longer could live under those circumstances . So the first thing they are fighting for is to achieve a peace agreement in which they put a stop on the israeli blockade.

UtahDan
01-03-2009, 01:53 PM
Mindful, there has been no stronger critic of Israel than me on this board (or CG). But I am just not sure what can be said about this latest chapter in the conflict. Yes, the reaction by Israel is too strong, but what does Hamas really expect will result from thousands of rockets launched from Gaza?

This is my point Jeff. The leaders of Hamas and their masters in Tehran aren't causing the rockets to be fired in spite of what Israel will do. They do it to provoke exactly this response. It is disgusting if you think about it. They do it to gain political capital internally so that credence continues to be given to their radical agenda and moderates like our friend mindful have no chance. they would love nothing more than to escalate the conflict into a war that draws in the entire region. It seems plain that this is what they are attempting to do. Every time Isreal reacts (overreacts) to them they call all Muslims to jihad.

This will never end. We can't do a think to stop it. The extreme leadership on both sides very literally want it to go on forever.

UtahDan
01-03-2009, 01:57 PM
They no longer could live under those circumstances . So the first thing they are fighting for is to achieve a peace agreement in which they put a stop on the israeli blockade.

Mindful, do you really believe that the best and brightest Palestinian minds got together and concluded that the best way to end the blockade was to fire rockets from Gaza? That is silly. This is not a strategy that they remotely believe will do that. It is not the reason they are doing it. It is a strategy designed to escalate the conflict. Not even most of the Arab world has sympathy for Hamas.

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 01:59 PM
I am not sure what you hope I don't mean, your dudeliness. I am ready for this conflict to be over. I would rather they be able to talk this out, but from what I can tell in my 36 years of life, they are not going to be able to settle this peacefully.

This are the people who are willing to solve this problem out too (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090103/ap_on_re_mi_ea/eu_europe_gaza_protests) . Just See how different your approaches are .

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 02:05 PM
Mindful, do you really believe that the best and brightest Palestinian minds got together and concluded that the best way to end the blockade was to fire rockets from Gaza? That is silly. This is not a strategy that they remotely believe will do that. It is not the reason they are doing it. It is a strategy designed to escalate the conflict. Not even most of the Arab world has sympathy for Hamas.

Would you please find a single reason on the earth, why those corrupt Arab governments would have any sympathy with Palestinians and their leaders .The people are just nuisance in their eyes.I know you and i read some of your posts.I do expect you to embrace the reality on the ground .Do you really in your heart believe those Arab governments are on the people side ??

Jeff Lebowski
01-03-2009, 02:23 PM
I am not sure what you hope I don't mean, your dudeliness. I am ready for this conflict to be over. I would rather they be able to talk this out, but from what I can tell in my 36 years of life, they are not going to be able to settle this peacefully.

Let me just add, I know Israel does not have clean hands in this. No one does when it comes to war. Eventually this will turn to a full on war. I am not advocating this, I am predicting this.

What I mean is, I hope you don't really mean that you don't care how it ends as long as it ends. It is exactly this kind of fatigue that allows Israel to frequently get away with murder.

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 02:25 PM
Mindful, do you really believe that the best and brightest Palestinian minds got together and concluded that the best way to end the blockade was to fire rockets from Gaza? That is silly. This is not a strategy that they remotely believe will do that. It is not the reason they are doing it. It is a strategy designed to escalate the conflict. Not even most of the Arab world has sympathy for Hamas.

Its amazing to see how deliberately you choose to play down the main causes .Why would wholesome people in the middle east who are like you and I ,love to live want to practice radicalism and terrorism. What political and strategical elements would make people's lives so miserable to the point of producing crazy people who will finally do crazy things . You may want to read about Hamas top leaders .They are educated people, some of them have received their degree from the European countries .So no they are not dumb and crazy at the first place .Lets find what has made them leave easy lives and become easy targets for crazy Israeli war machine.

tooblue
01-03-2009, 02:35 PM
Its amazing to see how deliebrately you choose to play down the main causes .Why would wholesome people in the middle east who are like you and I ,love to live would want to become radical and terrorist. What political and strategical elements would make people lives so miserable to the point of producing crazy people who will finally do crazy things . You may want to read about hamas top leaders .They are educated people, some of them have received their degree from the european countries .So no they are not dumb and crazy at the first place .Lets find what has made them leave easy lives and become easy targets for crazy Israeli war machine.

Does Israel have a right to exist? When Israel is granted the right to exist by countries such as Iran then a Palestinian State will have a right to exist in peace and prosperity.

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 02:46 PM
Does Israel have a right to exist? When Israel is granted the right to exist by countries such as Iran then a Palestinian State will have a right to exist in peace and prosperity.

Not until their right of existence is being earned in the palestinians lives expense .

tooblue
01-03-2009, 02:58 PM
Not until their right of existence is being earned in the palestinians lives expense .

So as long as Israel is subjugated they have a right to exist? Isn't that the fate of all infidels?

Coach McGuirk
01-03-2009, 03:08 PM
This are the people who are willing to solve this problem out too (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090103/ap_on_re_mi_ea/eu_europe_gaza_protests) . Just See how different your approaches are .


Sorry, I read this article and found no substantive solutions to this problem. Are you saying everyone protest and that will solve it? Even some protesters turned violent, so I am not sure they are the example we are looking for.

SeattleUte
01-03-2009, 04:07 PM
Why is this complicated? Would it be any different for Canada if it started shooting missiles at U.S. cities?

RobinFinderson
01-03-2009, 04:23 PM
Why is this complicated? Would it be any different for Canada if it started shooting missiles at U.S. cities?

Jackass.

SeattleUte
01-03-2009, 04:27 PM
Jackass.

She asked why no condemnation. Who started the current conflict?

Clark Addison
01-03-2009, 04:41 PM
My two cents: Hamas has SOMETHING coming (wtf? launching rockets indiscriminately into Israel?), but Israel's response has been so incredibly disproportionate that I have lost just about every bit of sympathy I might otherwise muster for them.


What do you think a proportionate, measured response would be? I ask this in seriousness, because I frankly do not know. Like many who have responded, I don't feel that I am smart enough, knowledgeable enough, or probably even adequately free of bias to have the answers to this. It's a mess, and I can find much to blame in all parties, but few solutions.

ERCougar
01-03-2009, 08:40 PM
Stop meddling ?? you probably dont mean stop sending the F-16 and super modern tanks provided by your taxs?

I have no idea how involved we are in supporting the Israeli military. Apparently, very? This is why I posed the question--what's an appropriate response? Would you be happy if we just stopped "sending the F-16 and super modern tanks"? I kind of don't think so, but tell me. It sounds like you're advocating something stronger--something like a condemnation of Israel. It seems like that's asking a bit much.

That's the PR problem that Hamas is going to continually encounter. If they are, as you say, solely trying to secure rights for Palestinians, these kinds of measures turn reasonable Westerners off of their cause. I suspect UD's more correct than you're willing to admit.

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 08:55 PM
I have no idea how involved we are in supporting the Israeli military. Apparently, very? This is why I posed the question--what's an appropriate response? Would you be happy if we just stopped "sending the F-16 and super modern tanks"? I kind of don't think so, but tell me. It sounds like you're advocating something stronger--something like a condemnation of Israel. It seems like that's asking a bit much.

That's the PR problem that Hamas is going to continually encounter. If they are, as you say, solely trying to secure rights for Palestinians, these kinds of measures turn reasonable Westerners off of their cause. I suspect UD's more correct than you're willing to admit.

Well..my most objective of starting the thread was ,witnessing the heavily silence practicing in here regarding the topic .you as an American (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/CNN_U.S._weapons_create_Gaza_civilian_0102.html) and me as an Iranian need to know what our roles are in the most one-sided war on the earth as Israeli writer larry derfner has described it.

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 09:01 PM
Why is this complicated? Would it be any different for Canada if it started shooting missiles at U.S. cities?


She asked why no condemnation. Who started the current conflict?

It is a plausible narrative, and there are shards of truth in it, but it is also filled with holes. Here is the johann Hari's story . (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-true-story-behind-this-war-is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html)

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 09:11 PM
So as long as Israel is subjugated they have a right to exist? Isn't that the fate of all infidels?

Its striking coming from a voice of belief.

We do not know respected Jews who are following prophet Moses (peace be upon him) and living their precious religion ,as infidels ,if this is the case by the way.

Coach McGuirk
01-03-2009, 09:22 PM
Update to US involvement.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28484148/


Also looks like Israel is invading Gaza today.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 09:22 PM
Sorry, I read this article and found no substantive solutions to this problem. Are you saying everyone protest and that will solve it? Even some protesters turned violent, so I am not sure they are the example we are looking for.

No ,not at all. I was just portraying a different direction in which there is strong will to care about others as a human being regardless of their ethnicity,nationality or religion . And its obviously an opposite direction being taken by "chosen people".

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 09:25 PM
Update to US involvement.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28484148/


Also looks like Israel is invading Gaza today.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/

Yes .Ground incursion has started last night (my time).

SeattleUte
01-03-2009, 09:28 PM
It is a plausible narrative, and there are shards of truth in it, but it is also filled with holes. Here is the johann Hari's story . (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-true-story-behind-this-war-is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html)

This fellow's resume says it all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari

72 percent of the Palestinian people may favor a two-state solution (I don't doubt this; it sounds very plausible; in the aggregate civilian populations comprise decent, reasonable people; hence democracy works). But Hamas doesn't feel that way. Hamas is in league with Hezbollah and sworn to stop at nothing to utterly destroy the state of Israel. Israel is supposed to let Hamas operate unchecked? The Palestinians have chosen vile, reprehensible leaders. Apparently they chose Hamas. They are suffering because of bad leaders. It's a tragic story but one that happens over and over again.

The clincher is that Hari admits that Hamas "did an immoral thing" in shooting rockets at Israeli cities and killing sixteen civilians. His best argument is the pragmatic one--that this will only continue even step up the cycle of violence. But when a fascist state (Hamas was elected; so was Hitler) starts firing rockets at a democracy's cities and killing their civilian citizens, far be it at least from me to presume to to draw the line at "measured response." I think with Hamas' rhetoric any act of war against Israeli cities certainly must be taken with a clear eyed view that the consequences could be all out of proportion with the original injury. How else do you deal with the likes of Hamas? Is measured response part of realistic moral calculus in warfare? Should Israel have done NOTHING?

I don't get these lefties. What are they doing supporting an Islamist state? Telingly, Hari, apparenlty a famous "secularist," admits in the article, "an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions." He should reflect. Why so? Isn't that the real problem here?

SeattleUte
01-03-2009, 09:40 PM
corrected--two state solution not two party state

MindfulCoug
01-03-2009, 09:51 PM
This fellow's resume says it all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari

72 percent of the Palestinian people may favor a two-state solution (I don't doubt this; it sounds very plausible; in the aggregate civilian populations comprise decent, reasonable people; hence democracy works). But Hamas doesn't feel that way. Hamas is in league with Hezbollah and sworn to stop at nothing to utterly destroy the state of Israel. Israel is supposed to let Hamas operate unchecked? The Palestinians have chosen vile, reprehensible leaders. Apparently they chose Hamas. They are suffering because of bad leaders. It's a tragic story but one that happens over and over again.

The clincher is that Hari admits that Hamas "did an immoral thing" in shooting rockets at Israeli cities and killing sixteen civilians. His best argument is the pragmatic one--that this will only continue even step up the cycle of violence. But when a fascist state (Hamas was elected; so was Hitler) starts firing rockets at a democracy's cities and killing their civilian citizens, far be it at least from me to presume to to draw the line at "measured response." I think with Hamas' rhetoric any act of war against Israeli cities certainly must be taken with a clear eyed view that the consequences could be all out of proportion with the original injury. How else do you deal with the likes of Hamas? Is measured response part of realistic moral calculus in warfare? Should Israel have done NOTHING?

I don't get these lefties. What are they doing supporting an Islamist state? Telingly, Hari, apparenlty a famous "secularist," admits in the article, "an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions." He should reflect. Why so? Isn't that the real problem here?

That is why i chose Hari's article as a source of unbiased information.

What is now happening in Gaza is about the people who have no place to run or hide .No food and supplies to stay and no arms to defend and you are talking about supporting Islamic state?
This article apparently shows you could be a humanist and a secularist/atheist at the same time.

SoonerCoug
01-03-2009, 10:03 PM
What is now happening in Gaza is about the people who have no place to run or hide .

If the Palestinian people have no place to run or hide in the event of a war, then Hamas shouldn't be provoking a war. It's not in the interest of the Palestinian people. The Israelis abandoned their Gaza settlements, and Hamas proceeds to lob rockets into Israel. It's a damn stupid thing for Hamas to behave that way.

SeattleUte
01-03-2009, 10:21 PM
If the Palestinian people have no place to run or hide in the event of a war, then Hamas shouldn't be provoking a war. It's not in the interest of the Palestinian people. The Israelis abandoned their Gaza settlements, and Hamas proceeds to lob rockets into Israel. It's a damn stupid thing for Hamas to behave that way.

Good post.

Jeff Lebowski
01-03-2009, 10:48 PM
So as long as Israel is subjugated they have a right to exist? Isn't that the fate of all infidels?

A gross oversimplification.

Indy Coug
01-03-2009, 10:58 PM
I just wanted to officially express my gratitude of masterfully ignoring the current catastrophe happening in Gaza strip .Despite the fact that almost all main media have been reporting the crisis for more than one week,there has been No single post dropped by any of the board members in order to not to spoil the fun atmosphere governing in here .

Please enjoy more of the massive food ,football ,fun environment generously provided by administrators and executive committee.

Sorry for the interruption ............

Why? It's just more of the same old, same old. Both sides are wrong. Innocent people die along with the guilty. Nothing will arise from this that will get the Israelis and Palestinians closer to peace.

In light of that, there really isn't anything to discuss.

Jeff Lebowski
01-03-2009, 11:01 PM
Well you were my number one suspect to crash the fun party .and thanks god you didnot disappoint me .

Jeff..people have been denied food, fuel ,water and medicine since june 2007 . Does it make any sense to you ? The most concern is they have been literally isolated from the world .They need to be able to live in that area.
They no longer could live under those circumstances . So the first thing they are fighting for is to achieve a peace agreement in which they put a stop on the israeli blockade.

Yes, Gaza is an absolute mess. Overpopulated, nowhere near enough water, damaged infrastructure. And the Israeli economic blockade (going back decades) has made the situation hopeless. I really wish the US media and public would wake up and be honest about what is going on.

But in spite of that, the worst possible response I can think of would be to send thousands of rockets into Israel. If the Hamas leaders are really as educated as you describe, they need to get their diplomas revoked. Dumbasses.

RockyBalboa
01-04-2009, 12:00 AM
I just wanted to officially express my gratitude of masterfully ignoring the current catastrophe happening in Gaza strip.

Please enjoy more of the massive food ,football ,fun environment generously provided by administrators and executive committee.


You're welcome!!!

And thanks, I will.

MindfulCoug
01-04-2009, 02:09 PM
If the Palestinian people have no place to run or hide in the event of a war, then Hamas shouldn't be provoking a war. It's not in the interest of the Palestinian people. The Israelis abandoned their Gaza settlements, and Hamas proceeds to lob rockets into Israel. It's a damn stupid thing for Hamas to behave that way.

This ideology is quite inconvinicible and a frail assumption to justify occupation and destroy resistance in any terms.

Hamas has been rejected and subjected to so many scuttling plans through economic pressure,persistent harassment and covert warfare since the day one after its election.

While Hamas has actually kept its word and refrained from suicide bombing in Israel ,Palestinian civilians have been killed or injured on a daily basis by Israelis for all these years.

Keeping in mind that suicide bombing has been used for several years to delay the final settlement negotiation ,now that suicide bombing has stopped ,there is a new excuse for avoiding the dialogue that is, that Hamas ôrefuses to recognize the state of Israel.

Ironically it is Israel that refuses to accept Palestinian statehood---a fact that is further underlined by its relentless efforts to topple the Hamas government.

The home made Qassam rockets which are fired into Israel are the unavoidable corollary of the 40 year long occupation and oppression .How is Hamas supposed to stop Israelis from their daily attacks then?

MindfulCoug
01-04-2009, 02:14 PM
Yes, Gaza is an absolute mess. Overpopulated, nowhere near enough water, damaged infrastructure. And the Israeli economic blockade (going back decades) has made the situation hopeless. I really wish the US media and public would wake up and be honest about what is going on.

But in spite of that, the worst possible response I can think of would be to send thousands of rockets into Israel. If the Hamas leaders are really as educated as you describe, they need to get their diplomas revoked. Dumbasses.

Speaking of dumb, I suppose Israelis prefer to have a Palestinian karzai (i.e Mahmod Abbas) to take care of Gaza for them instead of smart ,educated delegations who are taking care of Palestinians interests.

CardiacCoug
01-04-2009, 02:25 PM
Speaking of dumb, I suppose Israelis prefer to have a Palestinian karzai (i.e Mahmod Abbas) to take care of Gaza for them instead of smart ,educated delegations who are taking care of Palestinians interests.

Also speaking of dumb, why would anybody in America (President Bush, for example) go to war to achieve "Democracy in the Middle East."

Democracy in that region of the world results in Hamas or the current Iranian leadership. Give me a pro-Western despot over Democracy until the majority of people show some signs that they are something more than ignorant religious fundamentalists.

SeattleUte
01-04-2009, 02:30 PM
Also speaking of dumb, why would anybody in America (President Bush, for example) go to war to achieve "Democracy in the Middle East."

Democracy in that region of the world results in Hamas or the current Iranian leadership. Give me a pro-Western despot over Democracy until the majority of people show some signs that they are something more than ignorant religious fundamentalists.

Israel is a true democracy. It's hardly despotic. It's head of state recently resigned under political pressure. What more proof do you need. It has faults, but it still is a democracy. No one argues Athenian democracy was not such just because, say, there were slaves who couldn't vote. Israeli democracy is far more advanced than Athenian democaracy, much closer to U.S. democracy on the spectrum. It is by no means despotic.

tooblue
01-04-2009, 02:35 PM
A gross oversimplification.

It's not ... it's the root of the problem. A fundamental tenant of Hamas's ideology is that Israel must wiped from the map. You can't simply hope that if one helps improve the social economic conditions of the Palestinian people one will be able to contend with the ideology. And that's not to say that all humans everywhere should not be afforded the same freedoms Americans enjoy. But the ideology is the cause and primary stumbling block here. Outside countries must stop treating the symptoms an start attacking the cause ... islamofascist hate.

tooblue
01-04-2009, 02:43 PM
Its striking coming from a voice of belief.

We do not know respected Jews who are following prophet Moses (peace be upon him) and living their precious religion ,as infidels ,if this is the case by the way.

Ultimately, much of islam is comfortable with the idea of considering infidels and believers of other faiths one and the same.

MindfulCoug
01-04-2009, 02:51 PM
Israel is a true democracy. It's hardly despotic. It's head of state recently resigned under political pressure. What more proof do you need. It has faults, but it still is a democracy. No one argues Athenian democracy was not such just because, say, there were slaves who couldn't vote. Israeli democracy is far more advanced than Athenian democaracy, much closer to U.S. democracy on the spectrum. It is by no means despotic.

The lack of comprehensive and solid terms definition in a way that they cannot be exploited or prevailed is what we need to earn the common ground for a fair discussion.If people preferably should be allowed to define terms ,then its the end of any sort of fair diplomatic conversation.

MindfulCoug
01-04-2009, 02:56 PM
Ultimately, much of islam is comfortable with the idea of considering infidels and believers of other faiths one and the same.

I have never earned that comfort level to judge Mormonism ,yet i have been studying your religion for quite a few years.But you seem quite confident in your approach ,yet awfully unfamiliar with Islam .Where does this confidence come from ? It must be art !

UtahDan
01-04-2009, 02:59 PM
It's not ... it's the root of the problem. A fundamental tenant of Hamas's ideology is that Israel must wiped from the map. You can't simply hope that if one helps improve the social economic conditions of the Palestinian people one will be able to contend with the ideology. And that's not to say that all humans everywhere should not be afforded the same freedoms Americans enjoy. But the ideology is the cause and primary stumbling block here. Outside countries must stop treating the symptoms an start attacking the cause ... islamofascist hate.

I know this is very cynical, but I have suggested before, and still believe, that this stalemate with a continual, slow blood letting is as good as it gets in this region. I say this because there aren't any historical examples that I know of where a dispute like this gets solved in a non military way. Think of all the times that peace keeping and non violent compromises have been attempted here and else where and failed.

If Israel had the will and lack of morality that some of the despots of the 20th century had (and that Hamas surely has but is impotent) it would simply empty its borders of Palestinians at the point of a bayonette. That would solve the problem but would involve a massive loss of life. That isn't going to happen. But neither will a peaceful solution ever be achieved either. So, as I say, this may be as good as it gets.

I will say this though, the first time a WMD gets smuggled in and used that will create the will I am talking about.

MindfulCoug
01-04-2009, 02:59 PM
Also speaking of dumb, why would anybody in America (President Bush, for example) go to war to achieve "Democracy in the Middle East."

Democracy in that region of the world results in Hamas or the current Iranian leadership. Give me a pro-Western despot over Democracy until the majority of people show some signs that they are something more than ignorant religious fundamentalists.

Whats wrong with backward ,ignorant religious fundamentalists to choose a backward ,ignorant fundamentalists administrator ?

Your Avatar is just priceless ...by the way .

SoonerCoug
01-04-2009, 03:31 PM
Your Avatar is just priceless ...by the way .

No one could possibly appreciate that avatar without knowing who Mangino is.

Jeff Lebowski
01-04-2009, 03:32 PM
It's not ... it's the root of the problem. A fundamental tenant of Hamas's ideology is that Israel must wiped from the map. You can't simply hope that if one helps improve the social economic conditions of the Palestinian people one will be able to contend with the ideology. And that's not to say that all humans everywhere should not be afforded the same freedoms Americans enjoy. But the ideology is the cause and primary stumbling block here. Outside countries must stop treating the symptoms an start attacking the cause ... islamofascist hate.

OK, let's play your game. Do Palestinians have a right to exist (i.e., self-determination and a state)?

tooblue
01-04-2009, 03:43 PM
I have never earned that comfort level to judge Mormonism ,yet i have been studying your religion for quite a few years.But you seem quite confident in your approach ,yet awafully unfamiliar with Islam .Where does this confident come from ? It must be art !

All truth of every faith will be circumscribed into one true faith. Some are prepared to wait for the mysteries of God to miraculously bring about this 'inevitability'. Others see themselves as God's instrument and are prepared to bring it to pass through force of law or armed conflict. Until that last sentence it's not entirely clear whether I was speaking of Mormon Christianity or Islam?

Our faiths are not so different except for the fact that we do not send our young men to die as martyrs. We prefer to send them into the world as living examples discipleship.

CardiacCoug
01-04-2009, 04:45 PM
Israel is a true democracy. It's hardly despotic. It's head of state recently resigned under political pressure. What more proof do you need. It has faults, but it still is a democracy. No one argues Athenian democracy was not such just because, say, there were slaves who couldn't vote. Israeli democracy is far more advanced than Athenian democaracy, much closer to U.S. democracy on the spectrum. It is by no means despotic.

I was referring to the goal of democracy in the rest of the Middle East outside of Israel.

Jeff Lebowski
01-04-2009, 05:28 PM
Israel is a true democracy. It's hardly despotic. It's head of state recently resigned under political pressure. What more proof do you need. It has faults, but it still is a democracy. No one argues Athenian democracy was not such just because, say, there were slaves who couldn't vote. Israeli democracy is far more advanced than Athenian democaracy, much closer to U.S. democracy on the spectrum. It is by no means despotic.

A slavery disclaimer. Classic.

tooblue
01-04-2009, 06:48 PM
OK, let's play your game. Do Palestinians have a right to exist (i.e., self-determination and a state)?

Only if they first recognize Israel's right to exist.

CardiacCoug
01-04-2009, 06:50 PM
Whats wrong with backward ,ignorant religious fundamentalists to choose a backward ,ignorant fundamentalists administrator ?


Mindful, I know that there are many intelligent, open-minded Iranians, many of whom are also devout Muslims. I work with some Iranian doctors who have come to America since the Iranian Revolution and have a lot of respect for the greatness of Iranian history and culture, and for the role of properly applied Islam within Iran. But many Americans like President Bush seem to think that a democratically elected government (in Iraq for example) would suddenly decide to offer its people all of the same freedoms people enjoy in Western Europe and that would produce a government that would embrace the US and Israel.

Am I wrong to believe that a majority of Iranians and residents of other countries around the Middle East (obviously outside of Israel) want to live in an Islamic theocracy? One that denies the right of women to drive a car, own property, and have their own job and income? One that requires women to cover their heads and bodies? One that would require the death penalty for Muslims who reject Islamic teachings? One that would favor the annihilation of Israel by any means possible?

When I say backward or ignorant, I'm not referring to any Islamic belief except for the belief that religious laws should be imposed by legal force or by violence on those who don't wish to obey those religious laws. The desire to impose your religious beliefs and practices on others by force or by codification into law is ignorant and backward, whether you're a Mormon, a Southern Baptist, or a Muslim.

Jeff Lebowski
01-04-2009, 06:58 PM
Only if they first recognize Israel's right to exist.

Only if Israel first recognizes their right to exist.

You see how helpful this simple logic is?

Jeff Lebowski
01-04-2009, 07:09 PM
Mindful, I know that there are many intelligent, open-minded Iranians, many of whom are also devout Muslims. I work with some Iranian doctors who have come to America since the Iranian Revolution and have a lot of respect for the greatness of Iranian history and culture, and for the role of properly applied Islam within Iran. But many Americans like President Bush seem to think that a democratically elected government (in Iraq for example) would suddenly decide to offer its people all of the same freedoms people enjoy in Western Europe and that would produce a government that would embrace the US and Israel.

Am I wrong to believe that a majority of Iranians and residents of other countries around the Middle East (obviously outside of Israel) want to live in an Islamic theocracy? One that denies the right of women to drive a car, own property, and have their own job and income? One that requires women to cover their heads and bodies? One that would require the death penalty for Muslims who reject Islamic teachings? One that would favor the annihilation of Israel by any means possible?

When I say backward or ignorant, I'm not referring to any Islamic belief except for the belief that religious laws should be imposed by legal force or by violence on those who don't wish to obey those religious laws. The desire to impose your religious beliefs and practices on others by force or by codification into law is ignorant and backward, whether you're a Mormon, a Southern Baptist, or a Muslim.

Cardiac, are you familiar with Farid Zakaria's writings on this topic? I haven't read this book, but I hear it is quite good:

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/books/fof_main.html

Here is an article that summarizes his views on the topic:

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/ARTICLES/other/democracy.html

A sampling:


Elections, open, free and fair, are the essence of democracy, the inescapable sine qua non. Governments produced by elections may be inefficient, corrupt, shortsighted, irresponsible, dominated by special interests, and incapable of adopting policies demanded by the public good. These qualities make such governments undesirable but they do not make them undemocratic. Democracy is one public virtue, not the only one, and the relation of democracy to other public virtues and vices can only be understood if democracy is clearly distinguished from the other characteristics of political systems.

CardiacCoug
01-04-2009, 07:36 PM
Cardiac, are you familiar with Farid Zakaria's writings on this topic? I haven't read this book, but I hear it is quite good:

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/books/fof_main.html

Here is an article that summarizes his views on the topic:

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/ARTICLES/other/democracy.html

A sampling:

Thanks for those. I'm a big fan of Fareed Zakaria but I haven't read that book yet.

In that article he talks about Alexander Lukashenko, the President of Belarus. He was legitimately elected shortly after I arrived in Belarus on my mission, and now is considered "The Last Dictator of Europe" after crushing and then terrorizing any opposition forces for the last 15 years. Lukashenko was even rumored to have offered his country as a site of amnesty for Saddam Hussein and his sons at the time of the US invasion.

MindfulCoug
01-04-2009, 11:46 PM
Why? It's just more of the same old, same old. Both sides are wrong. Innocent people die along with the guilty. Nothing will arise from this that will get the Israelis and Palestinians closer to peace.

In light of that, there really isn't anything to discuss.

Aye .why bother opening that can again,when it snot directly targeting our lives and interests.

MindfulCoug
01-04-2009, 11:51 PM
All truth of every faith will be circumscribed into one true faith. Some are prepared to wait for the mysteries of God to miraculously bring about this 'inevitability'. Others see themselves as God's instrument and are prepared to bring it to pass through force of law or armed conflict. Until that last sentence it's not entirely clear whether I was speaking of Mormon Christianity or Islam?

I dont think Practicing different aspects of the same values descended by God would necessarily make any conflicts,but putting your interest above others definitely will, regardless of the ideology of solidarity of religions in the light of the unifier.


Our faiths are not so different except for the fact that we do not send our young men to die as martyrs. We prefer to send them into the world as living examples discipleship.

Yeah .You would rather send your young men to slaughter other people in the name of freedom and democracy.

Coach McGuirk
01-05-2009, 12:19 AM
Mindful, what would be a successful end to this conflict in your eyes?

tooblue
01-05-2009, 03:36 AM
Only if Israel first recognizes their right to exist.

You see how helpful this simple logic is?

You can try to twist it as much as you like, but there's one problem. Israel has recognized their right to exist. They did withdraw their settlements. Yet Hamas continues to refuse to recognize Israel. So this isn't the game you thought it was going to be is it. Tee hee ... not!

Have you even tried to read about and understand the motivation behind this latest military action? It is to root out Hamas. Because Hamas is a terrorist organization that cannot be reigned in by a Palestinian authority with which Israel was willing to work!

tooblue
01-05-2009, 04:16 AM
I dont think Practicing different aspects of the same values descended by God would necessarily make any conflicts,but putting your interest above others definitely will, regardless of the ideology of solidarity of religions in the light of the unifier.



Yeah .You would rather send your young men to slaughter other people in the name of freedom and democracy.

We would rather not send young men or WOMAN to die in the name of freedom and democracy as extended to all individuals regardless of race, creed or religion. Whereas to die as a martyr in the name of Islam appears to be esteemed above securing the most basic of rights associated with life for all human kind.

Who or what is putting it's interest above others? A suicide bomber not only puts his/her interest above his fellow human kind but attempts to put his or her interests above God's with the aim to circumvent God's judgement.

MindfulCoug
01-05-2009, 04:27 AM
Mindful, what would be a successful end to this conflict in your eyes?

well ...Its the world water and resources war and the determining ideology of whom deserve them more. Its not just about Muslim Arabs or blacks and you would never know who their next target would be.

I bet there has been enough UN resolutions to start negotiating and achieving peace ,but since Israel holds the hardly flattering world record of ignoring UN resolutions, no peace progress is insight.

With the powerful UN mandatory resolutions which would guarantee their enforcement , meaningful peace talks can be proceed and various solutions can be reached for co-habitation with equal rights for all people between the Mediterranean and the River Jordan.

tooblue
01-05-2009, 04:47 AM
well ...Its the world water and resources war and the determining ideology of whom deserve them more. Its not just about Muslim Arabs or blacks and you would never know who their next target would be.

I bet there has been enough UN resolutions to start negotiating and achieving peace ,but since Israel holds the hardly flattering world record of ignoring UN resolutions, no peace progress is insight.

With the powerful UN mandatory resolutions which would guarantee their enforcement , meaningful peace talks can be proceed and various solutions can be reached for co-habitation with equal rights for all people between the Mediterranean and the River Jordan.

But co-habitation with equal rights is not the goal of Hamas or Iran. Their goal is to wipe Israel from the map and impose Islamic law on every person.

Jeff Lebowski
01-05-2009, 06:38 AM
You can try to twist it as much as you like, but there's one problem. Israel has recognized their right to exist. They did withdraw their settlements. Yet Hamas continues to refuse to recognize Israel. So this isn't the game you thought it was going to be is it. Tee hee ... not!


Thus illustrating Israel's brilliant political strategy regarding Gaza. Put a few tiny settlements in even though you know that Gaza is a shithole and not worth fighting for. Impose an economic blockade to ensure that the Palestinians in Gaza will never become self-sufficient or develop a viable economy. Then pull out the settlements and pretend that it was some kind of huge concession (worked on tooblue), thus building up some political capital to take attention away from the real prize: the West Bank.

tooblue
01-05-2009, 07:38 AM
Thus illustrating Israel's brilliant political strategy regarding Gaza. Put a few tiny settlements in even though you know that Gaza is a shithole and not worth fighting for. Impose an economic blockade to ensure that the Palestinians in Gaza will never become self-sufficient or develop a viable economy. Then pull out the settlements and pretend that it was some kind of huge concession (worked on tooblue), thus building up some political capital to take attention away from the real prize: the West Bank.

None of what is stated above changes the fact -- which is the my original point -- that the goal for Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map. This is the root of the problem. You are content to allow your emotions to be manipulated by terrorists, so as to focus on treating the symptoms. Such manipulation permits you to willfully ignore the cause -- the evil that is Islamic radicalism. For every maimed Palestinian innocent shown being rushed to a hospital after Israeli attacks there is an Israeli innocent being rushed to a hospital after a rocket attack or suicide bombing.

MindfulCoug
01-05-2009, 09:34 AM
But co-habitation with equal rights is not the goal of Hamas or Iran. Their goal is to wipe Israel from the map and impose Islamic law on every person.

Neither is the Israel goal.

Unless Israel can make 5 to 7 million Palestinians disappear, it must find some way to coexist with them. Israeli leaders on the center and right continue to avoid facing this fact.

Jeff Lebowski
01-05-2009, 09:42 AM
None of what is stated above changes the fact -- which is the my original point -- that the goal for Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map. This is the root of the problem. You are content to allow your emotions to be manipulated by terrorists, so as to focus on treating the symptoms. Such manipulation permits you to willfully ignore the cause -- the evil that is Islamic radicalism. For every maimed Palestinian innocent shown being rushed to a hospital after Israeli attacks there is an Israeli innocent being rushed to a hospital after a rocket attack or suicide bombing.

Who needs Tex when we have tooblue? Your original comment was about "Irael" and a "Palestinian state". Now you are narrowing your discussion to Hamas (is anyone here defending Hamas or Islamic Radicalism?). Nice dodge.

BigPiney
01-05-2009, 09:50 AM
Why is this complicated? Would it be any different for Canada if it started shooting missiles at U.S. cities?

Wow, thanks Harry Reid. He said the exact same thing on Meet the Press yesterday.

MindfulCoug
01-05-2009, 09:55 AM
None of what is stated above changes the fact -- which is the my original point -- that the goal for Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map. This is the root of the problem. You are content to allow your emotions to be manipulated by terrorists, so as to focus on treating the symptoms. Such manipulation permits you to willfully ignore the cause -- the evil that is Islamic radicalism. For every maimed Palestinian innocent shown being rushed to a hospital after Israeli attacks there is an Israeli innocent being rushed to a hospital after a rocket attack or suicide bombing.

Do you remember the last time you updated the suicide bomb attack news?

There has been NO Hamas backed suicide bomb attacks since they took the office. And the home made rockets casualty totals have been less than the car crash fatalities registered during a single holiday weekend on Israel's roads,while just the current war has left over 531 Palestinians killed and some 2,750 others wounded so far (day10) .

So how did you reach out to "there is one wounded Israeli for one wounded Palestinian" is beyond me.

But anyway ..This is where maimed Palestinian being rushed to .

http://i39.tinypic.com/a318j.jpg

And this is where maimed Israeli being rushed to.

http://i44.tinypic.com/f2pnr6.jpg

tooblue
01-05-2009, 10:16 AM
Who needs Tex when we have tooblue? Your original comment was about "Irael" and a "Palestinian state". Now you are narrowing your discussion to Hamas (is anyone here defending Hamas or Islamic Radicalism?). Nice dodge.

I am responding to your dodge. You failed to even adequately contend with my point and chose instead to address the symptoms and not the cause. And the cause -- Hamas and Islamic radicalism -- is the root of the problem. Stop dodging the issue and contend with the reality that Israel has recognized the Palestinian state while Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, does not observe treaties and espouses the goal of complete annihilation of a Jewish state.

myboynoah
01-05-2009, 10:19 AM
Do you remember the last time you updated the suicide bomb attack news?

There has been NO Hamas backed suicide bomb attacks since they took the office. And the home made rockets casualty totals have been less than the car crash fatalities registered during a single holiday weekend on Israel's roads,while just the current war has left over 531 Palestinians killed and some 2,750 others wounded so far (day10) .

So, are you suggesting that Hamas has no control over the rockets flying over the border? Or that they couldn't put an end to it?

I don't understand all this concern for proportionality. Iran, or any other nation, would never sit by and allow its border be violated in such a way.

TripletDaddy
01-05-2009, 10:25 AM
I don't understand all this concern for proportionality. Iran, or any other nation, would never sit by and allow its border be violated in such a way.

I was thinking the same thing.

If you launch a rocket into our backyard, we will destroy you. So don't launch rockets into our backyard.

creekster
01-05-2009, 10:33 AM
I was thinking the same thing.

If you launch a rocket into our backyard, we will destroy you. So don't launch rockets into our backyard.

I was impressed with the notion that deaths from hostile rockets are roughly equivalent to deaths from auto accidents. You know, you dirve and sometimes you have an accidcent. You live in Israel and sometimes Hamas launches rockets. This is just a necessary component of modern life. What's the big deal of a few rockets between neighbors?

Coach McGuirk
01-05-2009, 10:37 AM
And the home made rockets casualty totals have been less than the car crash fatalities registered during a single holiday weekend on Israel's roads.

Oh, Is that all? That is okay then.

RobinFinderson
01-05-2009, 10:39 AM
So, are you suggesting that Hamas has no control over the rockets flying over the border? Or that they couldn't put an end to it?

I don't understand all this concern for proportionality. Iran, or any other nation, would never sit by and allow its border be violated in such a way.

Proportionality is important if you are seeking eventual peace.

Does Hamas have control over the rockets? I don't know, but I would not be surprised if they didn't. No one has a more invested interest in recognizing the legitimacy of a Palestinian governance than Israel.

TripletDaddy
01-05-2009, 10:43 AM
I was impressed with the notion that deaths from hostile rockets are roughly equivalent to deaths from auto accidents. You know, you dirve and sometimes you have an accidcent. You live in Israel and sometimes Hamas launches rockets. This is just a necessary component of modern life. What's the big deal of a few rockets between neighbors?

That reminds me of a story....

An Orthodox Jew walks up to a Hamas militant in a bar and says, "is that a rocket in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

The Hamas militant says, "actually, it is a rocket."

Everyone dies.

TripletDaddy
01-05-2009, 10:47 AM
Proportionality is important if you are seeking eventual peace.

Does Hamas have control over the rockets? I don't know, but I would not be surprised if they didn't. No one has a more invested interest in recognizing the legitimacy of a Palestinian governance than Israel.

There will be no peace between those two because their differences are ultimately religious, not geographic. The notion that Jews and Muslims will get along in the Middle East is pretty laughable.

If the Palestinians were given a legal state, then all the attention and controversy would shift to the control over Jersusalem. Kinda sucks when 3 major world religions find one small patch of land to be so historically significant.

This is probably one of the main reasons Israel really will never recant in Gaza. If Israel totally concedes a Palistianian state, then there is nothing else left to fight for BUT Jersusalem. Why not keep the mud outside the house for as long as possible?

RobinFinderson
01-05-2009, 10:49 AM
One problem with these recent incursions is that they cast aspersions on Israel's intentions with the unilateral withdrawal of settlers from Gaza. Was that done as an effort toward peace? Or was it simply a matter of removing Jews in preparation for the military to roll through?

RobinFinderson
01-05-2009, 10:53 AM
This is probably one of the main reasons Israel really will never recant in Gaza. If Israel totally concedes a Palistianian state, then there is nothing else left to fight for BUT Jersusalem. Why not keep the mud outside the house for as long as possible?

The ancient city needs to be set aside as an international monument policed by the UN with visitation rights to each of the respective sets of believers (and tourists too) at different times of the year.

Of course in the long term it will eventually become the property of the Mormons. How else will a Mormon temple be built in the ancient city?

TripletDaddy
01-05-2009, 10:57 AM
The ancient city needs to be set aside as an international monument policed by the UN with visitation rights to each of the respective sets of believers (and tourists too) at different times of the year.

Of course in the long term it will eventually become the property of the Mormons. How else will a Mormon temple be built in the ancient city?

As long as we LDS can travel through Jerusalem freely and purchase limitless Hebrew rings, leather sandals with toe strap, and Pearl of Great Price facsimiles on banana paper, I am fine.

Coach McGuirk
01-05-2009, 11:02 AM
The ancient city needs to be set aside as an international monument policed by the UN with visitation rights to each of the respective sets of believers (and tourists too) at different times of the year.

Of course in the long term it will eventually become the property of the Mormons. How else will a Mormon temple be built in the ancient city?


The problem is the end game of the Fundi-Muslims. It isn't to have Gaza or a UN controlled Jerusalem. What is the end game? Everything else is just a move of a chess piece.

Jeff Lebowski
01-05-2009, 01:47 PM
I am responding to your dodge. You failed to even adequately contend with my point and chose instead to address the symptoms and not the cause. And the cause -- Hamas and Islamic radicalism -- is the root of the problem. Stop dodging the issue and contend with the reality that Israel has recognized the Palestinian state while Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, does not observe treaties and espouses the goal of complete annihilation of a Jewish state.

Israel has not recognized a Palestinian state. Gaza is a small fraction of the occupied territories. Withdrawal from Gaza does not equal recognition of a Palestinian state. Why bother discussing it if you can't even begin to get the facts straight?

cougjunkie
01-05-2009, 01:50 PM
Why not drop an A-bomb on the whole damn middle east?

creekster
01-05-2009, 01:50 PM
Why not drop an A-bomb on the whole damn middle east?

We need the oil.

YOhio
01-05-2009, 01:52 PM
Why not drop an A-bomb on the whole damn middle east?

Because they are Heavenly Father's children just as we are. If we're not patient with our brothers and sisters, how do we expect Him to be patient with us?

TripletDaddy
01-05-2009, 01:53 PM
Why not drop an A-bomb on the whole damn middle east?

rules of engagement. otherwise, we would have likely wiped everyone out in Iraq and Afghanistan.

creekster
01-05-2009, 01:56 PM
Because they are Heavenly Father's children just as we are. If we're not patient with our brothers and sisters, how do we expect Him to be patient with us?

Nope. It's the oil.

Jeff Lebowski
01-05-2009, 02:00 PM
I know this is very cynical, but I have suggested before, and still believe, that this stalemate with a continual, slow blood letting is as good as it gets in this region. I say this because there aren't any historical examples that I know of where a dispute like this gets solved in a non military way. Think of all the times that peace keeping and non violent compromises have been attempted here and else where and failed.

Sadly, I think you are right.


If Israel had the will and lack of morality that some of the despots of the 20th century had (and that Hamas surely has but is impotent) it would simply empty its borders of Palestinians at the point of a bayonette. That would solve the problem but would involve a massive loss of life. That isn't going to happen. But neither will a peaceful solution ever be achieved either. So, as I say, this may be as good as it gets.

I will say this though, the first time a WMD gets smuggled in and used that will create the will I am talking about.

This may be the ultimate scenario. And it will present Israel with a difficult dilemna: Respond in kind with a holocaust of Palestinians or abandon the dream of an Israeli state? Disaster either way.

MindfulCoug
01-05-2009, 02:30 PM
Why not drop an A-bomb on the whole damn middle east?

Yes please! Just make sure you will take "the chosen people" out first.

TripletDaddy
01-05-2009, 02:35 PM
Yes please! Just make sure you will take "the chosen people" out first.

It is interesting. if the world countries had to chose one or the other, I wonder whom they would chose...and why.

My guess is that ultimately, Israel stays on the island and the Palestinians get voted off. I would think that detonating bombs and taking hostages all over the world isn't going to swing many favorable votes.

tooblue
01-05-2009, 02:38 PM
Israel has not recognized a Palestinian state. Gaza is a small fraction of the occupied territories. Withdrawal from Gaza does not equal recognition of a Palestinian state. Why bother discussing it if you can't even begin to get the facts straight?

I have not misrepresented facts, where as you wish to parse them to benefit your argument. Withdrawal IS and act of recognition of a Palestinian state. It represented a legitimate step towards peace. A step light years beyond any step Hamas or any Palestinian has ever made. Furthermore, Your retreat into condescension does not absolve you of countering my point with a valid argument. You accuse me of dodging while you dodge ... and parse. Your logic is faulty and as a result your arguments are weak.

UtahDan
01-05-2009, 09:22 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/04/AR2009010401434.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Return Gaza to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan. It is far out, but the author is right about one thing: the "road map" is in tatters and it is time to start thinking creatively.

TripletDaddy
01-05-2009, 09:33 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/04/AR2009010401434.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Return Gaza to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan. It is far out, but the author is right about one thing: the "road map" is in tatters and it is time to start thinking creatively.

Yeah, this is great except it ignores one huge reality....the West likes Israel there to bully the Palestinians around/keep them subjugated/strategically kill people (terrorists). We want them on that wall....we NEED them on that wall.

Also, if Gaza goes back under Muslim control, then any terrorist activity becomes almost impossible to monitor...or at least substantially more difficult because Arab regimes do not rat out their own.

The Muslim Middle East has done itself a huge disservice by not cracking down on radical Islam. The net result is that most around the world truly don't trust Muslims and view them all as terrorists. So Israel is the local bodyguard doing the dirty work that the rest of the world wants done.

Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people wouldn't mind if the Middle East were wiped off the map. Years of terrorism has resulted in the loss of major goodwill.

Jeff Lebowski
01-05-2009, 10:05 PM
I have not misrepresented facts, where as you wish to parse them to benefit your argument. Withdrawal IS and act of recognition of a Palestinian state. It represented a legitimate step towards peace. A step light years beyond any step Hamas or any Palestinian has ever made. Furthermore, Your retreat into condescension does not absolve you of countering my point with a valid argument. You accuse me of dodging while you dodge ... and parse. Your logic is faulty and as a result your arguments are weak.

Putting a settlement in a land conquered by war is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. It is also a violation of countless UN resolutions. Removing a few small illegal settlements is not remotely close to recognizing a Palestinian state.

You are still struggling with the basic facts. This is hardly worth my effort.

tooblue
01-06-2009, 03:36 AM
Putting a settlement in a land conquered by war is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. It is also a violation of countless UN resolutions. Removing a few small illegal settlements is not remotely close to recognizing a Palestinian state.

You are still struggling with the basic facts. This is hardly worth my effort.

You are still avoiding my original point by twisting so called basic facts to benefit your opinion. It's not worth your time because you do not have a good answer to support your untenable position.

Terrorist organizations are, by virtue of their existence, a violation of the Geneva convention. Lobbing rockets into Israel, contrary to a brokered treaty is a violation of the Geneva convention. Why did the President of Palestine (or Palestinian Authority) dissolve his government, which resulted in a civil war and resulted in Hamas seizing control of a territory where a 'few, small illegal' settlements once were if said government wasn't being recognized and Islamic radicals whose ONLY goal is to wipe Israel from the map were jeopardizing further recognition?

http://media.washingtontimes.com/media/img/photos/2008/08/04/annapolis.jpg

Jeff Lebowski
01-06-2009, 07:06 AM
You are still avoiding my original point by twisting so called basic facts to benefit your opinion. It's not worth your time because you do not have a good answer to support your untenable position.

Terrorist organizations are, by virtue of their existence, a violation of the Geneva convention. Lobbing rockets into Israel, contrary to a brokered treaty is a violation of the Geneva convention. Why did the President of Palestine (or Palestinian Authority) dissolve his government, which resulted in a civil war and resulted in Hamas seizing control of a territory where a 'few, small illegal' settlements once were if said government wasn't being recognized and Islamic radicals whose ONLY goal is to wipe Israel from the map were jeopardizing further recognition?

http://media.washingtontimes.com/media/img/photos/2008/08/04/annapolis.jpg

Perhaps you missed the posts above where I condemned the rockets being fired into Israel.

Terrorist organizations are wrong? No way! Thanks for pointing that out.

Let me remind you of your original post that got all of this started:


Does Israel have a right to exist? When Israel is granted the right to exist by countries such as Iran then a Palestinian State will have a right to exist in peace and prosperity.

I said that was an oversimplification. The statement clearly goes beyond the current issue with Hamas and Gaza, so please stop trying to change the topic. Perhaps you are aware of how Egypt eventually recognized Israel after swearing that they would never do so. Perhaps you are also aware that the Palestinians have offered countless times during negotiations to recognize the state of Israel in exchange for concessions. It is a bargaining chip. In order for that to happen, there has to be an agreement on disbanding the settlements in the West Bank, returning water, returning land confiscated by the "Security Wall", right of return for refugees, compensation for seized land and property, a solution for Jerusalem etc. Certainly the Palestinians won't get everything they want. Thus far, they have been offered almost nothing. But to say that this all boils down to recognizing Israel's "right to exist" is ignorant and unfair.

Goatnapper'96
01-06-2009, 08:15 AM
Proportionality is important if you are seeking eventual peace.

Does Hamas have control over the rockets? I don't know, but I would not be surprised if they didn't. No one has a more invested interest in recognizing the legitimacy of a Palestinian governance than Israel.

I will be the second to ask you to give some definition or examples of what proportionality is? Telling me what it is not by quoting statistics of the current conflict will not suffice. Israel is going to be more effective as it has a better war machine, so you tell me how to fairly tie its arms and legs behind its back so that the fight is proportional and our lovely terrorists have a fighting chance to achieve their noble goals of peace and prosperity. To date, you have dodged that question which I think deserves some attention before we go about impugning Israeli action. What other response is avaliable to them? Should they just randomly lob rockets back?

Saying that, I think militant Muslims are the only group I despise more than Israel. However, I stand with DDD that having the Israeli's occupy them keeps some of them from blowing themselves up in my country.

RobinFinderson
01-06-2009, 09:04 AM
I will be the second to ask you to give some definition or examples of what proportionality is? Telling me what it is not by quoting statistics of the current conflict will not suffice. Israel is going to be more effective as it has a better war machine, so you tell me how to fairly tie its arms and legs behind its back so that the fight is proportional and our lovely terrorists have a fighting chance to achieve their noble goals of peace and prosperity. To date, you have dodged that question which I think deserves some attention before we go about impugning Israeli action. What other response is avaliable to them? Should they just randomly lob rockets back?

Saying that, I think militant Muslims are the only group I despise more than Israel. However, I stand with DDD that having the Israeli's occupy them keeps some of them from blowing themselves up in my country.

It was a fair question when originally asked, and I forgot to get around to answering, so I will do my best here:

While proportionality is critically important to achieving lasting peace, it is also a concept that can only be seen by the mind's eye. To some, Israel can do no right, and to others Israel can do no wrong. All of these folks are blind to 'proportionality.' They could never be persuaded that any amount of violence from the opposition was proportional.

The case for what is proportional must be made in the court of public opinion. This is especially true when there are drastically stark differences of power between sides. Consider the terms of Germany's surrender after WWI. Many historians believe that the onerous terms were so disproportionate and humiliating to the German people that they sewed the seeds of WWII. Of course at the time, relative to the horrors and cost of the war, anything but total capitulation could be viewed as blind leniency. So who sought the 'proportional' resolution? Wilson or Clemenceau? The answer depends on your POV.

So, like I said a couple of days ago, the reason I think no one had broached this subject before Mindful is because the problem is impossibly difficult to address. I can't say what Israeli actions would proportional, but when you compare side-to-side the collateral death tolls, I think most reasonable people in the world would agree that Israel's actions are NOT proportional.

For there ever to be lasting peace, Israel needs to be able to make the case that they had treated the Palestinian people fairly.

creekster
01-06-2009, 09:09 AM
It was a fair question when originally asked, and I forgot to get around to answering, so I will do my best here:

While proportionality is critically important to achieving lasting peace, it is also a concept that can only be seen by the mind's eye. To some, Israel can do no right, and to others Israel can do no wrong. All of these folks are blind to 'proportionality.' They could never be persuaded that any amount of violence from the opposition was proportional.

The case for what is proportional must be made in the court of public opinion. This is especially true when there are drastically stark differences of power between sides. Consider the terms of Germany's surrender after WWI. Many historians believe that the onerous terms were so disproportionate and humiliating to the German people that they sewed the seeds of WWII. Of course at the time, relative to the horrors and cost of the war, anything but total capitulation could be viewed as blind leniency. So who sought the 'proportional' resolution? Wilson or Clemenceau? The answer depends on your POV.

So, like I said a couple of days ago, the reason I think no one had broached this subject before Mindful is because the problem is impossibly difficult to address. I can't say what Israeli actions would proportional, but when you compare side-to-side the collateral death tolls, I think most reasonable people in the world would agree that Israel's actions are NOT proportional.

For there ever to be lasting peace, Israel needs to be able to make the case that they had treated the Palestinian people fairly.

You seem to be confusing proportional dispute settlements with proporitonal military response on the battlefield. Germany's capitulation was a proportioanl response to anything; it was the fruit of a battlefield defeat.

SeattleUte
01-06-2009, 09:13 AM
You seem to be confusing proportional dispute settlements with proporitonal military response on the battlefield. Germany's capitulation was a proportioanl response to anything; it was the fruit of a battlefield defeat.

"Unconditional surrender"--Roosevelt and Churchill at Casablanca. They said what they meant and they meant what they said. One of history's great ironies is that Anglo-American resolve to require unconditional surrender is perhaps the greatest gift we have given to European and Asian peoples.

Goatnapper'96
01-06-2009, 10:14 AM
"Unconditional surrender"--Roosevelt and Churchill at Casablanca. They said what they meant and they meant what they said. One of history's great ironies is that Anglo-American resolve to require unconditional surrender is perhaps the greatest gift we have given to European and Asian peoples.

I recall Clausewitz that military might is nothing more than an extension of political goals. The question at hand is Israel's political goal of not having rockets launched at their citizens a legitimate and fair in our fair lover of small tobasco bottles litmus test of "public opinion?" I would think the same fair and reasonable people who believe the higher death toll of Palestinians indicates Israel is using disproportionate force would agree that such a political goal is fair. From my perspective then Israel has the right to put enough bite behind that political goal to accomplish it. So far, it appears that Hamas has yet to be persuaded to stop doing it. So I could care less about proportionality as much I can whether or not they are being effective in their extension of political goals. Under Finderson's perspective Israel does not have the right to accomplish their political goal, which I think he would define as fair, if Hamas has the resolve to endure "proportional" losses as what Hamas can exact upon Israel. Effectively, the bleeding heart architechts are making sure that no country has a military advantage over an opponent. Harrison Bergeron?

RobinFinderson
01-06-2009, 10:52 AM
I recall Clausewitz that military might is nothing more than an extension of political goals. The question at hand is Israel's political goal of not having rockets launched at their citizens a legitimate and fair in our fair lover of small tobasco bottles litmus test of "public opinion?" I would think the same fair and reasonable people who believe the higher death toll of Palestinians indicates Israel is using disproportionate force would agree that such a political goal is fair. From my perspective then Israel has the right to put enough bite behind that political goal to accomplish it. So far, it appears that Hamas has yet to be persuaded to stop doing it. So I could care less about proportionality as much I can whether or not they are being effective in their extension of political goals. Under Finderson's perspective Israel does not have the right to accomplish their political goal, which I think he would define as fair, if Hamas has the resolve to endure "proportional" losses as what Hamas can exact upon Israel. Effectively, the bleeding heart architechts are making sure that no country has a military advantage over an opponent. Harrison Bergeron?

Some day you will have to remind me (in a PM, please) what was said about small Tabasco bottles. I have a vague recollection (the size of man's primary unit of measure?), but I can't recall the details.

The question of 'proportionality' has everything to do with long-term goals. In the short term, I can not disagree that Israel's response to rocket fire is reasonable. But what does the response do to any long-term hopes for peace? It may be a matter of winning a battle only to lose the war.

Israel faces some impossible seeming long-term challenges. For one, they have hitched their longevity to American prosperity. That may have looked like a sure bet ten years ago, but no so much today. So the weight of world opinion regarding 'proportionality' will most likely matter more in the future than it does today.

Another seemingly impossible long-term challenge involves the relative Israel/Palestinian population growth rates. As the Palestinians get packed increasingly tighter into their sardine can, it becomes increasingly difficult for Israel to 'tread lightly' among the millions of innocents. Few things will radicalize a population faster than missile strikes in densely populated urban settings.

When I talk about 'proportionality' I'm not suggesting that strong nations be weak. I'm suggesting that long-term strength might look different than short-term strength.

MindfulCoug
01-06-2009, 11:39 AM
I was impressed with the notion that deaths from hostile rockets are roughly equivalent to deaths from auto accidents. You know, you dirve and sometimes you have an accidcent. You live in Israel and sometimes Hamas launches rockets. This is just a necessary component of modern life. What's the big deal of a few rockets between neighbors?


Oh, Is that all? That is okay then.

I would never be insensitive toward Israeli casualties .I was just trying to figure out the "one for one" statement furnished by tooblue.

MindfulCoug
01-06-2009, 11:42 AM
Yeah, this is great except it ignores one huge reality....the West likes Israel there to bully the Palestinians around/keep them subjugated/strategically kill people (terrorists). We want them on that wall....we NEED them on that wall.

Also, if Gaza goes back under Muslim control, then any terrorist activity becomes almost impossible to monitor...or at least substantially more difficult because Arab regimes do not rat out their own.

The Muslim Middle East has done itself a huge disservice by not cracking down on radical Islam. The net result is that most around the world truly don't trust Muslims and view them all as terrorists. So Israel is the local bodyguard doing the dirty work that the rest of the world wants done.

Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people wouldn't mind if the Middle East were wiped off the map. Years of terrorism has resulted in the loss of major goodwill.

I am not concerned ,knowing where your "world" begins and where it ends. Nice try though.

TripletDaddy
01-06-2009, 11:55 AM
I am not concerned ,knowing where your "world" begins and where it ends. Nice try though.

I live in reality. White guy, Asian guy, Arab guy walk through an airport........who is perceived to be the biggest threat? Pretty easy to answer that one. A world coalition fighting a war against terrorism, not against Judaism.

I would be more interested in hearing your case as to how Muslims are NOT perceived this way by the world at large.

I honestly think that of all major world religions, no group has a worse public perception right now than Islam. And the negativity is all associated with violence, terrorism, and fundamentalist extremism.

The refusal to recognize this will continue to be the biggest hinderance to progress in the Middle East. get the world on your side first, then proceed. that would be my strategy.

Jeff Lebowski
01-06-2009, 01:24 PM
So Israel is the local bodyguard doing the dirty work that the rest of the world wants done.

WTF? You are way off base here. First of all, rest of the world does NOT unilaterally support Israel like the US does. Not even close.

Second, your post implies that Israel somehow keeps a lid on the boiling pot of fanatical Islamic militants and keeps the rest of us safe. You couldn't be more wrong. The plight of the Palestinians is a powerful current that runs through the entire Mideast and is used as a justification for anti-US sentiment. It is certainly not the sole issue in the region, but it is arguably the foundation for the hatred.

This is all shaking out precisely as predicted by Truman's state dept back in 1948. Israel is our only ally in the region. But prior to Israel, we had no enemies.

MindfulCoug
01-06-2009, 01:32 PM
Mindful, I know that there are many intelligent, open-minded Iranians, many of whom are also devout Muslims. I work with some Iranian doctors who have come to America since the Iranian Revolution and have a lot of respect for the greatness of Iranian history and culture, and for the role of properly applied Islam within Iran. But many Americans like President Bush seem to think that a democratically elected government (in Iraq for example) would suddenly decide to offer its people all of the same freedoms people enjoy in Western Europe and that would produce a government that would embrace the US and Israel.

Am I wrong to believe that a majority of Iranians and residents of other countries around the Middle East (obviously outside of Israel) want to live in an Islamic theocracy? One that denies the right of women to drive a car, own property, and have their own job and income? One that requires women to cover their heads and bodies? One that would require the death penalty for Muslims who reject Islamic teachings? One that would favor the annihilation of Israel by any means possible?.

Its not difficult to agree with the statement of " people ought to achieve " rather than "been given" democracy ,but its difficult to agree with the statement of "gifting democracy" is the mere goal of the US present in the region considering Iraq brutal dictator and US government's friendly ties as recently as some years ago.

Since there is a remarkable democratic superiority in your post i would like to remind you the latest US democracy product :
** Georg ,W Bush **
An absolute mess and a total failure . So middle easterns arenot alone in electing crappy leaders.

I have no idea what kind of theocracy you are talking about ,but as an Iranian woman ,i do have the right to vote ,the right to own my property ,the right to educate ,the right to vote since the first day under Islamic revolution.

But obviously the US government has NO problem dealing with those countries which ban their women from their basic rights.

Goatnapper'96
01-06-2009, 01:38 PM
I have no idea what kind of theocracy you are talking about ,but as an Iranian woman ,i do have the right to vote ,the right to own my property ,the right to educate ,the right to vote since the first day under Islamic revolution.

But do you have the right to be gay?

If you say yes I just don't know how my system is going to handle Selma Hayak and Jenna J scroggin on a Persian rug!

This board is the bomb. An Iranian chick advocating the depth and breadth of her liberties. Only in America, I tell ya!

TripletDaddy
01-06-2009, 01:38 PM
WTF? You are way off base here. First of all, rest of the world does NOT unilaterally support Israel like the US does. Not even close.

Second, your post implies that Israel somehow keeps a lid on the boiling pot of fanatical Islamic militants and keeps the rest of us safe. You couldn't be more wrong. The plight of the Palestinians is a powerful current that runs through the entire Mideast and is used as a justification for anti-US sentiment. It is certainly not the sole issue in the region, but it is arguably the foundation for the hatred.

This is all shaking out precisely as predicted by Truman's state dept back in 1948. Israel is our only ally in the region. But prior to Israel, we had no enemies.

I wasn't trying to imply that everyone unilaterally supports Israel. I agree with you. I am posting about chosing the lesser of two evils.

But I do feel that if you had to put it on a scale, the West's distrust of the Middle East (terrorism) far outweighs its dismay at Israel's behavior. Americans and Brits can live with Israel killing Palestinian settlers. Americans and Brits do NOT like fearing terrorist attacks in the UK, USA, etc.

Also, I don't think Israel keeps us safe. I just think that they are the first line of attack. When stuff goes down, Israel gets the brunt of it first. I think the West likes having that buffer in there.

My point boils down to this.....if the world had to choose, they would choose to wipe the Middle East out and save Israel. Why? Because the terrorist approach is viewed as cowardly and hypocritical.

Do you disagree with my bottom line point? Or do you feel that the majority of the world would choose the Middle East over Israel? I know it is not a simple solution, I am just asking for your impression.

Jeff Lebowski
01-06-2009, 01:40 PM
I wasn't trying to imply that everyone unilaterally supports Israel. I agree with you. I am posting about chosing the lesser of two evils.

But I do feel that if you had to put it on a scale, the West's distrust of the Middle East (terrorism) far outweighs its dismay at Israel's behavior. Americans and Brits can live with Israel killing Palestinian settlers. Americans and Brits do NOT like fearing terrorist attacks in the UK, USA, etc.

Also, I don't think Israel keeps us safe. I just think that they are the first line of attack. When stuff goes down, Israel gets the brunt of it first. I think the West likes having that buffer in there.

My point boils down to this.....if the world had to choose, they would choose to wipe the Middle East out and save Israel. Why? Because the terrorist approach is viewed as cowardly and hypocritical.

Do you disagree with my bottom line point? Or do you feel that the majority of the world would choose the Middle East over Israel? I know it is not a simple solution, I am just asking for your impression.

That makes more sense. Thanks.

MindfulCoug
01-06-2009, 01:50 PM
I live in reality. White guy, Asian guy, Arab guy walk through an airport........who is perceived to be the biggest threat? Pretty easy to answer that one. A world coalition fighting a war against terrorism, not against Judaism.

I would be more interested in hearing your case as to how Muslims are NOT perceived this way by the world at large.

I honestly think that of all major world religions, no group has a worse public perception right now than Islam. And the negativity is all associated with violence, terrorism, and fundamentalist extremism.

The refusal to recognize this will continue to be the biggest hinderance to progress in the Middle East. get the world on your side first, then proceed. that would be my strategy.

It mostly has to do with "easy answer" system ,you know .

Lay people are in hurry to receive easy answers as soon as possible and get back to their lives when it comes to complicated issues. And the media is where you can always find "easy answers" without any need to go to the core of the stories .

watching these very people spending hours and hours digging about "special's "lives and habit has never stopped to amaze me though.

MindfulCoug
01-06-2009, 01:58 PM
I wasn't trying to imply that everyone unilaterally supports Israel. I agree with you. I am posting about chosing the lesser of two evils.

But I do feel that if you had to put it on a scale, the West's distrust of the Middle East (terrorism) far outweighs its dismay at Israel's behavior. Americans and Brits can live with Israel killing Palestinian settlers. Americans and Brits do NOT like fearing terrorist attacks in the UK, USA, etc.

Also, I don't think Israel keeps us safe. I just think that they are the first line of attack. When stuff goes down, Israel gets the brunt of it first. I think the West likes having that buffer in there.

My point boils down to this.....if the world had to choose, they would choose to wipe the Middle East out and save Israel. Why? Because the terrorist approach is viewed as cowardly and hypocritical.

Do you disagree with my bottom line point? Or do you feel that the majority of the world would choose the Middle East over Israel? I know it is not a simple solution, I am just asking for your impression.

I remember talking with a Jewish guy a devout Zionist once who believed the US present is what has brought Israel nothing but damage .He was smart and respectful.Should i contact him and ask him to join ? I am not a friend of him or any thing though.

Here is his profile in case the administrator would like to have a contact.

http://360.yahoo.com/profile-rZP8W0Y8dLRHPHZ25Pv9

Jeff Lebowski
01-06-2009, 02:29 PM
I remember talking with a Jewish guy a devout Zionist once who believed the US present is what has brought Israel nothing but damage .He was smart and respectful.Should i contact him and ask him to join ? I am not a friend of him or any thing though.

Here is his profile in case the administrator would like to have a contact.

http://360.yahoo.com/profile-rZP8W0Y8dLRHPHZ25Pv9

That would be great. It would be better coming from you as opposed to a complete stranger like one of us.

TripletDaddy
01-06-2009, 02:33 PM
I remember talking with a Jewish guy a devout Zionist once who believed the US present is what has brought Israel nothing but damage .He was smart and respectful.Should i contact him and ask him to join ? I am not a friend of him or any thing though.

Here is his profile in case the administrator would like to have a contact.

http://360.yahoo.com/profile-rZP8W0Y8dLRHPHZ25Pv9

I didnt look, but is it Noam Chomsky?.....

The more the merrier on CUF. Invite your contact, by all means.

SeattleUte
01-06-2009, 02:47 PM
I didnt look, but is it Noam Chomsky?.....

The more the merrier on CUF. Invite your contact, by all means.

Noam Chomsky smack. Impressive.

TripletDaddy
01-06-2009, 03:15 PM
Noam Chomsky smack. Impressive.

There are loads of Persians in South County. Several good friends that are Persian.

Whenever a pro Palestinian starts talking about Jews for Islam, they always bust out Chomsky.

Jeff Lebowski
01-06-2009, 03:29 PM
This is a decent commentary on the current conflict:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/iftikhar.gaza/index.html


Regardless of who's to blame for the origins of the conflict, shame on both Hamas and Israel for their recent violations of international law that have led to a humanitarian inferno in Gaza and southern Israel.
Simply put, an Israeli life is equal to a Palestinian life (and vice versa). Politics be damned; basic human decency dictates that both sides of this conflict must be condemned for their respective human rights violations.

Don't miss the discussion on proportionality.

MindfulCoug
01-07-2009, 06:55 AM
But do you have the right to be gay?

I have the right to not be asked about my private life or sexual orientation,nor to confess before someone else,no matter how big his/her religious ranking is.

Goatnapper'96
01-07-2009, 07:44 AM
This is a decent commentary on the current conflict:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/iftikhar.gaza/index.html



Don't miss the discussion on proportionality.

Can someone explain to me how Israel's right to stop rocket attacks works out with respect to proportionality? Clearly, I am skeptical of the entire proportionality concept. The extent to which Israel must dole out punishment is in some part dictated by Hamas' ability to endure the punishment being doled out.

I can understand the concept Finderson makes about chances for peace and perhaps one can state a criticism of Israel's method that it is too agressive and thus counterproductive, but criticizing the effectiveness of their method and then calling them war criminals are two different arguments.

Finally, I don't want to get all theoretical as quite honestly there are those more equipped for that line of thinking than myself, but how does proportionality work when two fighting forces have different "rules." Now, I am not Pro-Israel as the sons of bitches knew about the plans to bomb the Marine Corps barracks in Beirut but never told us 30 years ago. Their goal and interest was to embolden US hate/mistrust of Arab countries. In defense of Israel the Arab countries do a good job on their own but I doubt I will ever forgive Israel for that little witholding of information, clearly we are just their pawn and most likely they are ours as DDD indicates. However, Israel is fighting with a professional army that will take some precautions and efforts to mitigate civilian casualties. I doubt they take the same precautions that the US military takes (and even with our very careful precautions I believe mindful could let us know how frequently we fail and there is civilian collateral death- war is an ugly business), but I believe that the intent of Hamas is to attack civilian targets. I understand why Hamas fights how they do and I don't want to argue about the merits of guerrilla/terrorist warfare I am just illuminating the ridiculousness of this concept in the current struggle. When one side is fighting a terrorist type guerrilla war, my mind struggles to fathom what exactly proportionality is to it. It just strikes me as some word people use with some death toll count on both sides. Israel, IMO, has a right to protect itself from attack and I think they are justified to exact the pain neccesary to motivate their attackers to stop. Proportionality doesn't work real well in that equation. But I agree that it sounds real sexy.

Goatnapper'96
01-07-2009, 07:47 AM
I have the right to not be asked about my private life or sexual orientation,nor to confess before someone else,no matter how big his/her religious ranking is.

Don't worry Sister, I am just a Pro-Lesbian Elder's Quorum President!;)

I honestly find your contributions here amazing. Don't take my sophmoric swipes too serious, I just try to be the Mormon Beavis to UOhio's Butthead.

RobinFinderson
01-07-2009, 08:25 AM
Can someone explain to me how Israel's right to stop rocket attacks works out with respect to proportionality? Clearly, I am skeptical of the entire proportionality concept. The extent to which Israel must dole out punishment is in some part dictated by Hamas' ability to endure the punishment being doled out.

I can understand the concept Finderson makes about chances for peace and perhaps one can state a criticism of Israel's method that it is too agressive and thus counterproductive, but criticizing the effectiveness of their method and then calling them war criminals are two different arguments.

Finally, I don't want to get all theoretical as quite honestly there are those more equipped for that line of thinking than myself, but how does proportionality work when two fighting forces have different "rules." Now, I am not Pro-Israel as the sons of bitches knew about the plans to bomb the Marine Corps barracks in Beirut but never told us 30 years ago. Their goal and interest was to embolden US hate/mistrust of Arab countries. In defense of Israel the Arab countries do a good job on their own but I doubt I will ever forgive Israel for that little witholding of information, clearly we are just their pawn and most likely they are ours as DDD indicates. However, Israel is fighting with a professional army that will take some precautions and efforts to mitigate civilian casualties. I doubt they take the same precautions that the US military takes (and even with our very careful precautions I believe mindful could let us know how frequently we fail and there is civilian collateral death- war is an ugly business), but I believe that the intent of Hamas is to attack civilian targets. I understand why Hamas fights how they do and I don't want to argue about the merits of guerrilla/terrorist warfare I am just illuminating the ridiculousness of this concept in the current struggle. When one side is fighting a terrorist type guerrilla war, my mind struggles to fathom what exactly proportionality is to it. It just strikes me as some word people use with some death toll count on both sides. Israel, IMO, has a right to protect itself from attack and I think they are justified to exact the pain neccesary to motivate their attackers to stop. Proportionality doesn't work real well in that equation. But I agree that it sounds real sexy.

Besides 'proportionality' being the fuzzy term we have been tossing around, it is also a fuzzy technical term used by the Israeli military every time they plan an attack. I heard an interesting NPR piece about it the other day where the interviewee defined proportionality thus: An attack is proportional if the military outcome outweighs the civilian cost. Still fuzzy as hell, since it weighs apples to oranges, but that is apparently how the issue is teed up for discussion in the war rooms.

Goatnapper'96
01-07-2009, 08:53 AM
Besides 'proportionality' being the fuzzy term we have been tossing around, it is also a fuzzy technical term used by the Israeli military every time they plan an attack. I heard an interesting NPR piece about it the other day where the interviewee defined proportionality thus: An attack is proportional if the military outcome outweighs the civilian cost. Still fuzzy as hell, since it weighs apples to oranges, but that is apparently how the issue is teed up for discussion in the war rooms.

That is basically saying that we will do militarily what it takes to accomplish our political goals. If the military objective is crucial enough we will ignore the collateral civilian cost in order to accomplish it. I think this is similar to what both great military theorists Goatnapper'96 and Clausewitz have been saying all along.

Jeff Lebowski
01-07-2009, 08:57 AM
Besides 'proportionality' being the fuzzy term we have been tossing around, it is also a fuzzy technical term used by the Israeli military every time they plan an attack. I heard an interesting NPR piece about it the other day where the interviewee defined proportionality thus: An attack is proportional if the military outcome outweighs the civilian cost. Still fuzzy as hell, since it weighs apples to oranges, but that is apparently how the issue is teed up for discussion in the war rooms.

Every sane person believes in the concept of proportionality whether they want to admit it or not. I can guarantee you that there is a level of response that would make Goatnapper object.

RobinFinderson
01-07-2009, 09:05 AM
Every sane person believes in the concept of proportionality whether they want to admit it or not. I can guarantee you that there is a level of response that would make Goatnapper object.

The NPR piece was pretty interesting in breaking down the logistics of planning an attack. The interviewee said there are basically three technical factors taken into account in deciding every planned attack:

Proportionality: Will the military outcome outweigh the civilian cost?
Intelligence: How certain are we in our assessment of proportionality?
Technology: Do we have the capacity to conduct the attack and limit its scope to ensure that the outcome remains proportional?

Goatnapper'96
01-07-2009, 09:06 AM
Every sane person believes in the concept of proportionality whether they want to admit it or not. I can guarantee you that there is a level of response that would make Goatnapper object.

Now we have what my issue is. In this you say there is a level of response that I would object, with that I agree. I don't think Israel has the right to totally eradicate all Palestinians from the face of the earth in order to accomplish the goal of no more rocket attacks. However, the issue here is that Israel needs to place enough pressure upon Hamas that they stop. However, when one uses the word "proportionality" and then throws in death toll counts it creates an illusion that Israel can only respond in kind to Hamas. The litmus test to whether or not Israel's pressure has been appropriate is whether or not Hamas stops firing rockets. If Hamas is still firing rockets then I am not sure what death toll counts mean...other than an indicator that Israel is clearly killing the wrong people.

RobinFinderson
01-08-2009, 01:43 PM
NYT reporting on Gaza. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/middleeast/09mideast.html?hp)


More than 700 dead, Gaza authorities reporting at least 200 children dead.
Israel is preventing the delivery of medical aid and food to the Gaza strip.
Why don't the civilians simply evacuate the area? Right, because Israel won't let them leave. The Vatican publicly compares Gaza to a concentration camp.
Red Cross reports finding emaciated children next to the body of their dead mother.
UN Supply driver shot dead by Israeli attack against his convoy (nice intel Israel!)

TripletDaddy
01-08-2009, 01:58 PM
NYT reporting on Gaza. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/middleeast/09mideast.html?hp)


More than 700 dead, Gaza authorities reporting at least 200 children dead.
Israel is preventing the delivery of medical aid and food to the Gaza strip.
Why don't the civilians simply evacuate the area? Right, because Israel won't let them leave. The Vatican publicly compares Gaza to a concentration camp.
Red Cross reports finding emaciated children next to the body of their dead mother.
UN Supply driver shot dead by Israeli attack against his convoy (nice intel Israel!)


I wonder why the Western powers have not quickly and decidedly condemned Israel for its recent behavior towards the Palestinians?........

RobinFinderson
01-08-2009, 02:09 PM
I wonder why the Western powers have not quickly and decidedly condemned Israel for its recent behavior towards the Palestinians?........

Because Israel exercises disproportionate influence in Western nations? You're asking a rhetorical question, but I don't see the obvious answer. Can you spell it out?

TripletDaddy
01-08-2009, 02:45 PM
Because Israel exercises disproportionate influence in Western nations? You're asking a rhetorical question, but I don't see the obvious answer. Can you spell it out?

I already answered.

Pretty simple: The West doesn't feel bad for Palestine. Terrorism has made most of the world secretly desire that the Middle East be gone.

Yes, I know I have no way of proving this and that it is a bold statement, but I honestly think that it is true.

Terrorism has been the single biggest hindrance of the past 50 or so years in the advancement of the Middle East.

Goatnapper'96
01-09-2009, 07:28 AM
I already answered.

Pretty simple: The West doesn't feel bad for Palestine. Terrorism has made most of the world secretly desire that the Middle East be gone.

Yes, I know I have no way of proving this and that it is a bold statement, but I honestly think that it is true.

Terrorism has been the single biggest hindrance of the past 50 or so years in the advancement of the Middle East.

I agree. The Western countries don't love Israel because of the Crown Heights lobby, Israel is viewed as the lesser of two evils.

Jeff Lebowski
01-09-2009, 08:45 AM
I know this is very cynical, but I have suggested before, and still believe, that this stalemate with a continual, slow blood letting is as good as it gets in this region. I say this because there aren't any historical examples that I know of where a dispute like this gets solved in a non military way. Think of all the times that peace keeping and non violent compromises have been attempted here and else where and failed.


I have been thinking about this a little more. I don't think you meant it this way, but it sounds as if you saying that there is a possibility for a military solution to the conflict. I don't think that is the case. First of all, Israel won the war 40 years ago. Ever since that time it has simply been an occupation. You have F-16's, tanks, and night-vision goggles against rocks and molotov cocktails for the most part.

There will never be a "military solution" to the conflict. The Palestinians have nothing left to lose but their lives. They have lost the best part of their land, their water, their infrastructure, their best farmland, and their dignity. Nobody will take them in because there are too many of them and it would signal an acceptance of essentially an ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

The only way this could possibly end would be for Israel to accept a two-state solution and end the occupation of the West Bank. And that won't happen until there is more external pressure to do so, particularly from the US. And that doesn't seem likely.

Jeff Lebowski
01-09-2009, 08:50 AM
I agree. The Western countries don't love Israel because of the Crown Heights lobby, Israel is viewed as the lesser of two evils.

The Western countries don't love Israel nearly as much as the US loves Israel.

We love Israel because God promised the holy land to the Jews. Turns out that God promised it to the Muslims too. But of course our God is better then their God.

RobinFinderson
01-09-2009, 09:12 AM
...The Palestinians have nothing left to lose but their lives. They have lost the best part of their land, their water, their infrastructure, their best farmland, and their dignity. Nobody will take them in because there are too many of them and it would signal an acceptance of essentially an ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

Well said.


The only way this could possibly end would be for Israel to accept a two-state solution and end the occupation of the West Bank. And that won't happen until there is more external pressure to do so, particularly from the US. And that doesn't seem likely.

I still think the best solution would be a single secular state with a strong constitution that protects religious rights. The ancient city would become a separate 'state' policed and managed by an international consortium of Jews, Muslims and Christians under the aegis of the UN.

ME crisis solved by Robin Finderson. The time is 9:11AM, Jan 9, 2009.